Minimum wage increase?

[jagmagic]

There's so much that goes on with the economy, it would be near impossible to ever point your finger at minimum wage going up and then saying "Aha! There! See it? The recession follows!" with any degree of certainty.

FAR scarier than minimum wage is our current head of the Federal Reserve (which is in itself a scam). But this is another subject all its own.

Oh, I understand. There are many variables that affect the economy. However. When companies rely on a labor budget and in turn have to reduce the number of employees b/c they have to pay the remaining employees up to 40% more. This will lead to an increase in unemployment, (which is a major factor in the economy). Shipping call center and manufacturing jobs oversees due to outragoues labor costs in the U.S. leads to fewer jobs and higher unemployment. These are effects of a higher min. wage and contributors to a poor economy.

I am not trying to emply that we will enter a recession due to a min. wage hike, I'm simply stating that there is more negative than posative regarding the economy when discussing increasing the min. wage.

[jagmagic]

Guys, bottom line about raising the minimm wage is it hurts more people than it helps. I dont pay minimum wage to one of my employees either, so dont jump on my back because Im "just looking out for me"! I have 3 employees as of right now, one's at $8, the next is at $10.50, and the next is at $11.75 (crew leader).

I wont even get into the effects on the inflation rate, cost of goods in any place that labor is involved, etc, even though all of that is true. But, let's say that they are (and they will) raising the minimum wage over 2 years to $7.20 per hour. Now, with minimum wage at $7.20, that guy was making $3 above minimum wage, and had a "good paying job" for his age, is now only making 80 cent above minimum wage. He was originally hired at $7 per hour and busted his tail for 4 quarter raises to $8, and he's right back down to not even a dollar above everyone else, even though he's worked and gained the raises to have more.

Another example is my wife, who works part-time at a gift shop while she's in nursing school. Shes worked for 2 years, started off at minimum wage, recieved 5 or 6 small raises to $7.25 per hour. Now, everyone who is just being hired will start off 5 cent below someone with 2 years experience.

These two situations leave business owners with a decision. Do we say, "Sorry the government screwed you out of the raises that you worked hard for." and leave them working barely above minimum wage? or do we give them (as the labor unions do) a raise based on the minimum wage, to keep them fairly with the raises they worked for? That's for each individual business owner to figure out. I can tell you this for a fact though, my employee did come to me asking if he would stay right above minimum wage when it got to $7.20, or if he would get a raise like all of the minimum wage earners. I answered with a "We'll see..." because I had no answer for his question. I sure couldnt tell him that the 4 raises he had worked for and earned were worthless and that he couldve been a bottom feeder and gotten the raise through the government rather than from the sweat of his brow.

It's simple economics that if the price of labor goes up, the price of the goods and services will go up to, which is INFLATION. Ask anyone that owns a business and has employees, if the cost of your labor goes up 15-20%, are you going to eat that and keep charging the same prices? or are you going to include that in your cost of doing business and raise your prices?

Anyways, the point of this rant is this, and then I'm done. ( GO AHEAD---CHEER!) It not only gives a raise based on need rather than worth. It not only causes inflation to go up. It not only makes people more dependent on the government to handle their problems rather than handling them theirselves. It not only hurts small businesses with the employees asking questions like mine did. It not only hurts employees like my wife who are going to be back down at the bottom of thewageearners. It hurts almost everyone involved in one way or another. But, most of all, it hurts people that dont have jobs, who need them. You think we have an unemployment problem now? and that's when we can pay people $5 or $6 an hour to come to work? Wait till the minimum wage keeps getting raised to $7, 8 , & 9 per hour!!! The more you raise the minimum wage, the less jobs that will be able to be created because the money that the businesses have allocated to more employees will have less buying power.

I thought we learned how bad inflation was under Jimmy Carter?

It took me like 8 posts to say what you wrapped up in one...

very good points.

[scagguy]

i remember working at the local carwash for $1.35 per hour, but then again gas at that time was at 17 cents a gallon in a few of the gas wars they used to have. wonder how the buying power of that $1.35 compares to now?

steve

If you just use the gas price as a baseline for then vs. now Let's use $2.25 as the cost of gas now. So 2.25 divided by .17 = 13.24. Now take $1.35 X 13.24 = 17.87 Assuming a 20 gallon purchase making $1.35 an hour would take 2.51 hrs. If the wage amount has increased proportionally to gas prices it would look like this. 20 gallons at $2.25 = $45.00 divided by $17.87 per hour = 2.51 hrs work for the same 20 gallons of gas. So...in theroy the buying power is the same. Now having said all that here is my disclaimer. "It's Friday...after 5:00pm. My math may be fuzzy because of a beer or two or more".

[sx1100]

Hi I'm new here, I have only been lurking for a few days. This is a great site with lots of info, and some very bright posters. I plan on staying a while. But I can no longer sit on the sidelines of this debate.

While it is true that the government should not interfere with our business decisions, there is something that every business owner should take into account. As well as employee, senior citizen, and any body else who works for, holds their wealth in, or spends Dollars. That is that despite this country becoming great through the blood sweat and tears of it citizens, A hard, independent currency is also largely responsible for the good old USA becoming the greatest country on the face of the earth (Sorry to sound preachy but that is how I feel).

Unfortunately in the early Seventies our politicians decided to mess with the recipe that for almost 200 years made us great. They took us from a backed currency to a floating (fiat) currency. They in effect forced the rest of the world to do the same.

What should you know about a fiat currency?
#1 A fiat currency is a socialist Ideal meant to redistribute wealth (and power) upwards.
#2 A fiat currency destroys a country's manufacturing base(which is key for a true healthy GDP).
#3 A fiat currency must be devalued (inflation) constantly because of the debt it creates.
#4 A fiat currency must eventually be destroyed, preferably before its value reaches zero.

Their are many other things you should know, but I'll stop there for the sake of this debate.

What it means is that you are working for less and less each and every year. So are your employees. This is the reason SSI recipients receive a raise every year. This is the reason you should raise your prices every year, and also the reason minimum wage should be raised.

The dollars purchasing power is being progressively, and intentionally cut every year. Don't think so, do some research, before 1970 interest rate changes, and inflation where almost non-existent. Making the money is only half the battle, keeping the wealth created by our labor may over time be the hardest part of being self employed.

RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE NOW! OR GIVE US A HARD CURRENCY.......NOW!

I'm off my soapbox, Fire when ready.

[Woody]

sx1100: Amen brother!

Far too many don't understand what a fiat currency has done to this country, and how, no matter HOW much bullshi+ politicians spew, going back to a hard currency is the ONLY way to fix these problems.

Everyone thinks that this minimum wage increase is going to do great damage to them, our economy, consumer prices, et al. In reality, Helicopter Ben is currently the biggest worry our economy, and the much devalued dollar, have to fear.

P.S. That dollar bill in your wallet has very little value, but that nickel in your pocket is actually worth 7 cents. Everyone should put some thought into that statement.

[rustyt22]

Just because there are a large number of problems with our currentcurrency, and how it is not backed by Gold like it used to be, and that was the worst mistake our federal government couldhave made with our money doesnt change all ofthe facts that I had already stated in the previous comment. I agree that our dollar should be backedby gold, and I agree that if we dont get back to that, our inflation problem will continue. But, that still doesnt justifyspeeding up our inflation at a higher rate and therefore bringing the problems on our country quicker. Just my 2 cent.

I wil post more later, but I have to go celebrate a national championship at the swamp for our University of Florida Gator football team. GO GATORS!

[jagmagic]

yes, the currency is a huge problem, but that isn't what we are debating. we are debating the fact that a raise in the min. wage regardless of our currency situation is not a beneficial change to anyone.

[sx1100]

It is fundamental to your business(setting your prices and holding on to your wealth) and precisely why there is a minimum wage. It has everything to do with this debate. Inflation is NOT caused by you giving your employee a raise, it is caused by to many dollars being printed (too many dollars chasing to few goods and services). You may not like a minimum wage, but who besides you wont benefit from having money your paycheck keep up with the devalued dollar.

Would you work at a loss?

Would you pay an employee less every year?

Do you expect that people will want to work for you if you give them a pay cut every year?

Do you expect people to come to work everyday if their paycheck doesn't meet their basic needs?

No it's not your fault there is inflation, It isn't mine either, or is it your employees fault. But if paying each employee $20 or $40 dollars a week wipes out your profit, you probably shouldn't be in business anyway. Small business owners are the backbone of this country. They should have a longer view than having to pay a minimum wage increase, Because in the long run they will be the ones who benefit from a minimum wage increase. Angry employees can cost your business a lot more than $40 bucks a week.

[jrservices]

It is fundamental to your business(setting your prices and holding on to your wealth) and precisely why there is a minimum wage. It has everything to do with this debate. Inflation is NOT caused by you giving your employee a raise, it is caused by to many dollars being printed (too many dollars chasing to few goods and services).

This is a good point, & more $$$ being printed does not correct the problem, this is true. Knowing when & where to raise your pricing to cover your costs & keep that bottom line where it is is key.Very good post.

[rustyt22]

Angry employees are what I discussed in my first post. My employees dont work for minimum wage, and never have under me. They did start just barely above minimum wage though, and busted their tails to get a couple raises. This minimum wage increase has not only angered them, but angered me because it will negate their raises that they worked so hard for. Again, Ill make my point. I have an employee that has busted his tail for 4 different raises to make $8 per hour. No, he isnt the fastest or the smartest worker, and that's why he doesnt make 10 or 11 an hour, but he gives his all, and I have given him raises based on his value to the company and his trying to become a better worker. He came from Ace Hardware where he worked about half the day in the lumber yard, sat around the other half, and made minimum wage with all his other friends that just graduated high school. He was yelled at for getting 20 minutes over 40 hours when his manager had asked him to stay late, because they werent supposed to get overtime pay. All his other friends are still there and have done nothering to better themselves or their job situation, yet he went out, found another job and busted his tail to make more money and get overtime.

When this minimum wage hike takes effect to 7.20 per hour, he will be barely above them on the pay scale. What does that tell him as an individual? He couldve stayed at his lazy job at ace hardware and work only half the day, still make a 40 hour paycheck with his friends and never have worried about the raise b/c the government took care of it for him. Instead, he's busting his tail all day long with people he didnt go to school with for 80 cent more per hour. Sounds like he ought to be the one that's pissed, not the minimum wage earners.

Everyone has the right to earn whatever they want. We all should know that as business owners. I didnt graduate college, and I didnt have a good paying job for a long time, but I worked my way through the ranks at Lids in the mall from $7 per hour, to $8.50 as Asst. Mgr., and then on to Store Manager making 26k a year salary, and that still wasn't good enough for me. I then opened my own business on the side and God blessed it enough to the point where Im making about 35-40k this year and this is the first year full-time.

I said all that to say this. If youre making minimum wage for more than a year at any job, either one of two things is happening.

1 - your boss/company is taking advantage of you, and you need to go find another job. (and dont tell me there arent other jobs. That's laziness. The paper is filled with them every day and those are just the ADVERTISED ONES)

2 - You aren't worth more than $5 an hour to the company you work for and you need to show them what you are worth and start working extra hard for a raise.

Freaking McDonalds around here is hiring kids at 7.50 per hour to work. I made $8.50 at Chik fil a breading chicken when I was in college! (Yes, I dropped out of college...as I said earlier, no degree) Even the day labor guys get about $8-9 an hour cash around here. Your next question is probably going through your head right now that, "Why does Ace Hardware only pay min. wage?" Because there are so many kids that just graduated that aren't wanting to work, but their parents tell them they have to have a job, and Ace puts them to work about 8 or 9 times a day loading lumber in people's truck beds. The rest of the day they sit and play cards and get a 40 hour paycheck. That's why my one employee left, it was for the kids that weren't worried about their future and just wanting to skate by on the least work possible.

My next point is this, the only reason were having this discussion whatsoever is because labor union's raises are tied to the minimum wage. If the minimum wage goes up, so do most union wages. This is one of the reasons why the AFL-CIO is the Democratic party's largest supporter. Do you really think that the Democratic party is worried about the few people that make minimum wage? There's not enough votes in that can to help anything, and most minimum wage earners dont even vote anyway. (proven fact by the Gallup pole, 72% of min. wage earners didnt vote in the last presidential election) That point may not change your mind about min. wage raises, but I just thought you might want to know why they're fighting so hard for this. Trust me, it's not because of the actual minimum wage earners.

To finish my rant, I will try and point out the business owner's view of why this will hurt the economy. If I have an employee that is worth $5 an hour to me, but I dont give them a raise because they arent worth more than that to me or my company, what's going to happen to that individual when the min wage goes above $7 an hour? Almost every company has them at one time or another. They're the person that you don't fire because they dont ever screw up THAT bad, but you know they really aren't even worth the $250 per week you're paying them now, much less the $325 you'll be paying them after the min. wage hike. I know what's going to happen to them. One of two things, theyre going to be replaced by someone that is worth the $325 a week or their going to be fired and their previous duties will be handed over to someone who can handle them better within the company, all the while removing that job from the payroll.

BOTTOM LINE ONCE AGAIN : Minimum wage increases hurt more than they help. Yes, they help a few select people, but they hurt the economy, small business, job creation, inflation, employees that are making above minimum wage, etc.

[sx1100]

Angry employees are what I discussed in my first post. My employees dont work for minimum wage, and never have under me. They did start just barely above minimum wage though, and busted their tails to get a couple raises. This minimum wage increase has not only angered them, but angered me because it will negate their raises that they worked so hard for. Again, Ill make my point. I have an employee that has busted his tail for 4 different raises to make $8 per hour. No, he isnt the fastest or the smartest worker, and that's why he doesnt make 10 or 11 an hour, but he gives his all, and I have given him raises based on his value to the company and his trying to become a better worker. He came from Ace Hardware where he worked about half the day in the lumber yard, sat around the other half, and made minimum wage with all his other friends that just graduated high school. He was yelled at for getting 20 minutes over 40 hours when his manager had asked him to stay late, because they werent supposed to get overtime pay. All his other friends are still there and have done nothering to better themselves or their job situation, yet he went out, found another job and busted his tail to make more money and get overtime.

In the year 2000, $8 would buy 6 gallons off gas, or almost 3 gallons of milk. in 2007 $8 only buys a little over 3 gallons of gas, or 2 gallons of milk. I can't make it much simpler than that. If you refuse to see inflation, except when you are forced to pay it, it will catch up to you at some point, you are buying that same gas for your mowers.

When this minimum wage hike takes effect to 7.20 per hour, he will be barely above them on the pay scale. What does that tell him as an individual? He couldve stayed at his lazy job at ace hardware and work only half the day, still make a 40 hour paycheck with his friends and never have worried about the raise b/c the government took care of it for him. Instead, he's busting his tail all day long with people he didnt go to school with for 80 cent more per hour. Sounds like he ought to be the one that's pissed, not the minimum wage earners.

He will quit working for you, because your wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. He may not be the smartest, but he see his cost of living going up. Ironically in a way he is smarter than you, you refuse to see that the cost of living is going up, even after it is explained in detail to you.

Everyone has the right to earn whatever they want. We all should know that as business owners. I didnt graduate college, and I didnt have a good paying job for a long time, but I worked my way through the ranks at Lids in the mall from $7 per hour, to $8.50 as Asst. Mgr., and then on to Store Manager making 26k a year salary, and that still wasn't good enough for me. I then opened my own business on the side and God blessed it enough to the point where Im making about 35-40k this year and this is the first year full-time.

Would you be upset if I told you that you are not making much more now than when you worked for $7. I mean your making a lot more dollars, but those dollars are now buying a lot less. Are you starting to get the picture yet?

I said all that to say this. If youre making minimum wage for more than a year at any job, either one of two things is happening.

1 - your boss/company is taking advantage of you, and you need to go find another job. (and dont tell me there arent other jobs. That's laziness. The paper is filled with them every day and those are just the ADVERTISED ONES)

But its OK for the government to take advantage of you, can you go out and find a new government?

2 - You aren't worth more than $5 an hour to the company you work for and you need to show them what you are worth and start working extra hard for a raise.

Either that or stop being so stubborn and start listening when people try to tell you something

Freaking McDonald's around here is hiring kids at 7.50 per hour to work. I made $8.50 at Chik fil a breading chicken when I was in college! (Yes, I dropped out of college...as I said earlier, no degree) Even the day labor guys get about $8-9 an hour cash around here. Your next question is probably going through your head right now that, "Why does Ace Hardware only pay min. wage?" Because there are so many kids that just graduated that aren't wanting to work, but their parents tell them they have to have a job, and Ace puts them to work about 8 or 9 times a day loading lumber in people's truck beds. The rest of the day they sit and play cards and get a 40 hour paycheck. That's why my one employee left, it was for the kids that weren't worried about their future and just wanting to skate by on the least work possible.

Ahhh "freaking" McDonalds understands that the cost of living is going up? Does "freaking McDonalds ever have a shortage of people being the counter? And the question that was "going through my head" is ....How Dense?

My next point is this, the only reason were having this discussion whatsoever is because labor union's raises are tied to the minimum wage. If the minimum wage goes up, so do most union wages. This is one of the reasons why the AFL-CIO is the Democratic party's largest supporter. Do you really think that the Democratic party is worried about the few people that make minimum wage? There's not enough votes in that can to help anything, and most minimum wage earners dont even vote anyway. (proven fact by the Gallup pole, 72% of min. wage earners didnt vote in the last presidential election) That point may not change your mind about min. wage raises, but I just thought you might want to know why they're fighting so hard for this. Trust me, it's not because of the actual minimum wage earners.

Your OT never mentioned any union. Unions have little or nothing to do with your business or your employees. If I knew this topic was just you throwing a fit about Unions or Democrats, I would have left it alone.
But we are here now so I might as well burst your bubble. Since the year 2000 the federal debt has increased from 6trillion to almost 10trillion dollars. not including SSI The Iraq war and a bunch of other thing that are somehow off budget (If these things where included the debt would be a whopping $50 Trillion according to the report just submitted to congress. Thats about 4x the GDP). The Republicans had complete control of the House, Senate, and White House while all this spending was going on. Oh and their is no massive liberal based media conspiracy, If there was Bush would have never gotten away with what he has.

To finish my rant, I will try and point out the business owner's view of why this will hurt the economy. If I have an employee that is worth $5 an hour to me, but I don't give them a raise because they aren't worth more than that to me or my company, what's going to happen to that individual when the min wage goes above $7 an hour? Almost every company has them at one time or another. They're the person that you don't fire because they dont ever screw up THAT bad, but you know they really aren't even worth the $250 per week you're paying them now, much less the $325 you'll be paying them after the min. wage hike. I know what's going to happen to them. One of two things, theyre going to be replaced by someone that is worth the $325 a week or their going to be fired and their previous duties will be handed over to someone who can handle them better within the company, all the while removing that job from the payroll.

Alot of companies will fire 10% of their employees a year. That a true free market, If you can't fire, you shouldn't hire.

BOTTOM LINE ONCE AGAIN : Minimum wage increases hurt more than they help. Yes, they help a few select people, but they hurt the economy, small business, job creation, inflation, employees that are making above minimum wage, etc.

Bottom line: your pissed because you have to pay for something you don't want to understand, Blaming Unions and Democrats wont make anything any clearer for you.

BTW I am not a Democrat FYI

[jagmagic]

It is fundamental to your business(setting your prices and holding on to your wealth) and precisely why there is a minimum wage. It has everything to do with this debate. Inflation is NOT caused by you giving your employee a raise, it is caused by to many dollars being printed (too many dollars chasing to few goods and services). You may not like a minimum wage, but who besides you wont benefit from having money your paycheck keep up with the devalued dollar.

Would you work at a loss?

Would you pay an employee less every year?

Do you expect that people will want to work for you if you give them a pay cut every year?

Do you expect people to come to work everyday if their paycheck doesn't meet their basic needs?

No it's not your fault there is inflation, It isn't mine either, or is it your employees fault. But if paying each employee $20 or $40 dollars a week wipes out your profit, you probably shouldn't be in business anyway. Small business owners are the backbone of this country. They should have a longer view than having to pay a minimum wage increase, Because in the long run they will be the ones who benefit from a minimum wage increase. Angry employees can cost your business a lot more than $40 bucks a week.

Look, I'm not saying raising the min. wage is the bane of all existance. I'm saying it doesn't solve nearly as many problems as it creates, nor does it help nearly as many people as it hurts.

This point has all ready been made, but I will re-state it.

no, a loss of $20.00 to $40.00/week will not put me out of business. However, starting employees off at Min wage and training employees at a $2.00/hr higher rate will be a be a cost to be considered. I pay my guys between $8.00 and $12.00/hour. My training and OJT guys are at min. wage and receive a $1.75/hr raise after 60 days and a $1.00/hr raise after 30 additional days depending on performance. Then attendance bonuses that give them up to $1.00/hr so long as they have no attendance issues. For this area making over $8.00/hr. is a strong income for most. My guys are happy with what they are making. If the min. wage goes up, they will not be.

My costs will go up by 24% if my labor costs increase by 40%, which they will. This is factoring in training hours and everything. This is not counting the increase in fuel prices, communication prices, advertising prices and all other expenses that will rise due to the increase in every other company having to do what I have to do in order to fill the profit margin my increased labor will cause. I will have to pass on a 30% mark up across the board to make up the difference I will lose. This do not negatively affect me at all, I will get mine anyway. The people who will suffer is my emplyees, from higher taxes, and some possibly in a different tax bracket. My customers whos money will now not go as far, and it will reduce the hours my employees will work as my customers will probably look for ways to "trim the fat" out of the services they have done causing fewer hours for my part time guys who ironically are probably the group that needs the money the most.

This was not a debate as to what is causing our government problems this is a debate as to weather the min. wage raise is a good idea or not. Our government has many flaws that this will have no bearing on and some that it will, it is my opinion that their is no good to come from doing this.

Most people who work at min wage are only working at that rate for a short time without a raise. The people that are at $7.20 or below it will in a sence lose the raises they have got up to this point b/c more than likely the companies they work for are not going to give them a raise over and above the min. wage raise.

[sx1100]

We'll I'm done with this topic, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.:alien:

[rustyt22]

Bottom line: your pissed because you have to pay for something you don't want to understand, Blaming Unions and Democrats wont make anything any clearer for you.

BTW I am not a Democrat FYI

First of all, Im not pissed. There is no possible way for me to be pissed when youre in Gator Nation right now. We have 2 National Championships in one year. If my thread came acrossed as "pissed," it wasn't meant to sound like that. Im just stating my beliefs. You also have your beliefs that disagree with mine....thats great. But, Ill state this one more time.....

I KNOW THAT INFATION IS HAPPENING WITHOUT THE MINIMUM WAGE BEING RAISED! There, can you read that? I know that $20 buys less today than it did a year ago. You dont have to keep telling me. I already know it.

By the way, did I mention that I already know that $20 buys less today than it did yesterday? I was just wondering. I wasnt sure if I made that clear. :laughing:

Okay, now that weve got that straight, here's what Im telling you. Inflation has averaged around 4% the past 10 years or so (since before Jimmy Carter's years). If you throw in a minimum wage hike over two years that goes to 7.20 an hour, inflation will go up EVEN FASTER than it already is. (NOTICE: Inflation is already going up, but it will go up even faster...just wanted to make that clear) Everytime you raise the price of labor, and raise everyone employees wages to adjust for the Cost of living, it creates a cyclical hike in the product that's being created by those employees (in this example, lawn maintenance), which creates a cyclical hike in prices at the grocery store (because their LCO raised their rates and so did all of their employees get raises) which makes the $ worht less which boosts inflation so that everyone needs another Cost of Living raise again now that all the prices have been raised. Obviously, there are hundreds more steps in it than that, but that is a quick example of how youre theory doesnt work. If you're theory were kept alive, everyone would get Cost of living raises every year, and the inflation rate would be upwards of about 9-12% instead of the current 4% it has been at for the past 10 years.

Like I said in one of my first 2 posts, raising the minimum wage is a help to some people, and it seems like a good idea to people who want to help other people. But, in the long run, it doesnt pan out. It hurts more than it helps because the problem that it is trying to fix keeps rearing it's ugly head by growing even faster than it was before. If everyone in the country got COL (cost of living) raises at 4% a year for inflation, inflation would be 8 or 9%. If everyone then got COL raises at 8-9%, inflation would be at 11-12%. If everyone got COL raises at 11-12%, inflation would be at 15-18%.

To answer your rant about republicans sucking it up the past 8 years, i have no argument other than you automatically thought b/c I disagree with democrats that Im a republican. Do i have an R beside my name? Yes. Do most of their values line up with mine? No. Most of my political beliefs line up with the Libertarian party. Just because I dislike what Nancy Pelosi and Barbars Boxter are going to be doing to our nation for the next 4 years doesn't mean I love what the Republicans did either. The R's got away from their party's belief of smaller governement, less spending, and less government intrusion in our daily life. They let corruption enter, let ear-marked spending get out of control, and didnt pass what they shouldve fought harder for, most importantly, Social INSecurity.

Im only 24, and if they dont get SS fixed soon, Im going to paying into SS when I retire because it will be that bass-ackwards. Some of you may not like the idea of how to fix SS that Bush and SOME of the R's had, but you can't fault them for having the balls to step up to the plate and trying not to let it continue to go down the drain as it is now. We're back to the same old solution now, just pass the problem on to the next congress because we're not ready to fix it yet. It's going to get passed on down till it's almost unrepairable.

Anyways, that's another rant. hahaha The R's lost office because they DESERVED to lose office. I hate the alternative, but even so, maybe they'll learn a lesson about doing what you say youre going to do for the next time they have the power. Im kinda in the Neal Boortz belief as far as politics go today. Im not happy with whose in there but I also wasn't happy with what was going on either.

I said all that to say this. Please dont assume that because I dislike the D's, that I did like everything the R's were doing in office. That's the same as me saying I hate the Ohio State Buckeyes and you assuming Im a Michigan Wolverine fan. If you haven't noticed, I happen to bleed Orange and Blue.

[Woody]

We'll I'm done with this topic, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.:alien:

Yeah, no kidding.

Let me paraphrase this. Some of you guys are bellyaching about someone stealing gasoline out of your bulk tank with an eyedropper, but you're turning an oblivious eye to the SOB who has a 2 inch in diameter hose and a pump hooked up to it, pulling 100 gallons a minute out the back of your shop and into his tanker truck.

Something about not being able to see the forest because of all of the trees in the way??