ZTR Options

[KYGrassCutter]

I am a homeowner with 6 acres of level ground with 16-18 trees total. Have been mowing it with a 541 Workmaster that threw a rod last month. Since then have been looking at ZTRs.

After looking around at what is available here in KY, here are the options I have in purchasing a ZTR. All these are 2005 models.

1) Cub Cadet Tank M60-KH-EFI @ $7199.00+tax – 28HP Kohler V-Twin EFI Engine and 60” Deck. 3year warranty.

2) Cub Cadet Tank M60-KW-LC @ $7999.00+tax – 29HP Kawasaki Liquid-Cooled Engine and 60” Deck. 3year warranty.

3) Cub Cadet Tank M60-KH @ $6999.00+tax – 27HP Kolher V-Twin Engine and 60” Deck. 3year warranty.

4) Woods M2560K @$7475.00+tax – 25HP Kawasaki V-Twin and 60” Deck. 2year warranty.

5) Husqvarna IZ5223T @$7175.00+tax – 23HP Kolher and 52” Deck. 2year warranty.

6) Husqvarna IZ5223T @$6799.99 This is the same as above but, no sales tax as purchased over the internet. No freight either when shipped to a business. Question, is since this one comes crated from dealer does anyone know how difficult the setup is on one of these? Fairly competent mechanic, do own brakes, valve adjustments, etc. on my cars.

Does anyone here favor one over the others?

TIA for your help.

[Woody]

I gotta ask..... Why are you looking at a commercial grade mower?

A commercial cutter will cut lawns 10-12 hours a day, 5 days a week. It shouldn't take you more than 2.5 to 3 hours, once a week. Your total yearly usage should be roughly 35 cuts@3 hours=105 hours PER YEAR.

A commercial mower, in that amount of time, will see 50 hrs a week, about 30 weeks out of the year (depending on location), for about 1,500 hours a year. At the rate you will put hours on a commercial unit, it will last about 60 years. But, FAR BEFORE THAT TIME, you probably won't be able to get parts for it. Most likely when it hits 20 years old you'll have problems getting parts for it. So, in essence, you will be wasting your money. 40 years of life left on the mower, and it is obsolete, because you can't find some small, but critical part.

If it were me, I would look for a well built high-end homeowner variety ZTR. Some of them actually will put up with commercial duty for a couple of years without falling apart. This will most likely outlast your need for it, and will keep you from spending money needlessly. You should be able to save yourself roughly $5,000 dollars on the purchase, which could be better spent on other things.

For a comparison, you can buy yourself a big, tri-axle dump truck to haul around a maximum of 500 pounds once a week for the next 10 years.. But, a pickup truck would be a MUCH wiser choice, and would save you a shedload of money.

See what I mean?

Woody

[KYGrassCutter]

The thought was to have something that would last 20 years. Every dealer we talked to was of the opinion that we should look at the commerical grades to get that life span. Also, I was lookihg to shorten the time on the mower, therefore was looking at the lagrer decks 54-60" to get down to mowing in the 2hour range. I did not see too many residentals that had decks larger then 48". At the same time the other concern was having enough HP to run it. All of these reasons combined to look at something in the commerical grade.

[Woody]

Nahhh... You're blowing smoke up my azz now. Or your dealer is blowing it up yours. Know how I know? You are listing liquid cooled engines, and fuel injected ones. Those are "mine's not bigger than yours, but my mower is" items for a homeowner.

The liquid cooled is great for COMMERCIAL applications, because the engine stays at a fairly constant temperature through the day. Perfect for mow, go, mow, go. Of course, you won't be doing this.

The fuel injected will save about 20% on gasoline costs. But, your MUCH higher purchase price will never show you a savings at all, unless you mow with it for 30 or 40 years, at which point you might save 5 bucks or so.

Neither one of those items is ANYTHING but either "bragging rights" for you, or pure "man that guy was a dumbazz" profit for your dealer. FORGET about a mower lasting 20 years. You'll run into parts availability problems. Mark my words. And you'll sit there and look at a piece of equipment that will break your heart to throw away. Have a look at the pace of technology. Do you seriously think commercial mowers will be the same 20 years from now? I doubt it.

Want some SOUND advice?

1) FORGET the "over the internet" bull. NO DEALER SUPPORT. How the hell are you going to take it back "under warranty"?? Box it up and ship it? Forget it, BAD IDEA. You WILL need dealer support at some point. Besides, installing a deck and levelling it isn't much fun.

2) FORGET liquid cooled, or fuel injected. FORGET THEM. A waste of your money, and the fuel injected ones will be a quick nightmare if they need worked on. Search the internet and you'll see what I mean.

I'm looking at a CUB COMMERCIAL M-50 KHS. It has a 50" stamped deck and a 23 HP Kohler. It's built for COMMERCIAL use. Suggested RETAIL is $5,299.00 so you should be able to find one for $4,000.00 or so (if you know how to wheel and deal). There are many "homeowner" ZTR's that have done commercial duty, and will be a better fit to what you are looking for (and cost a few thousand dollars less). You need to reconsider your "last for 20 years" idea. You are locking yourself into spending much more money, with NO GUARANTEE that the mower will last that long.

Now, on to the deck width. I'm sure your dealer is telling you how you want or NEED a real wide deck. You say it is 6 acres. For simplicity, we'll make that a square (roughly 512 feet by 512 feet). With a 60 inch deck, it will take (512/5=102.4) about 103 passes. With a 48 inch deck, it will take 128 passes. So, 25 more passes. Now, each pass is 512 feet in length. Let's assume a mowing speed of 5 MPH (you said it was flat, we assume you obey the 1/3 rule and don't let the grass get too high, etc.). Ok, 5 miles per hour equals (5,280x5=26,400 feet per hour), which equates to 440 feet per minute. So, doing the math, we find that it will take (25 more passes x 512 feet per pass=12,800 more linear feet, divided by 440 feet per minute=29) 29 minutes more to mow it with a 48 inch deck width. Oh, another note here. Don't even THINK you are going to go out there and mow at 10 miles per hour just because the mower can go that fast. The cut will look HORRIBLE. You'll be running at 5 to 6 MPH max to keep a nice looking cut.

Ok, so you can save yourself 29 minutes each time you mow if you use a 60 inch wide deck. BUT WAIT A MINUTE...... In the real world, nothing is as it seems. Ask yourself this... HOW MANY PLACES will the 48 inch FIT that the 60 inch DOES NOT FIT? Have a look. If the 60 inch fits EVERYWHERE, then yes, you can save yourself about a half hour each time you mow. BUT.... If the 48 inch fits everywhere and the 60 inch doesn't, IT MAY END UP BEING QUICKER WITH THE 48 INCH!

As for horsepower.... ANY of them will have PLENTY of power. As long as you aren't trying to mulch REAL tall grass. If you are side-discharging, you won't have any problems. More horsepower doesn't mean faster cutting speeds. Maximum cutting speed is more dictated by conditions, and deck design, than anything else.

Anyhow... You asked. I gave you the straight scoop. I'm sure it isn't what you wanted to hear. Then again, I have a feeling this more about d1ck size than deck size.

Woody

[KYGrassCutter]

Woody, thanks for your input. Actually, did not read your last post till just now as wife and I went to Lowe’s to look at the ZTRs. The one they have is a Cub Cadet RZT22 model with B&S V-Twin Intek Engine. Price at Lowe’s is $2999.99 there is also a dealer that carries the same for $2899.00.

Do you have any opinions on this model or the engine?

[ODTB]

Tractor supply here local has the cub cadet Z-force 50, with 23 HP kohler 50" stamped deck for $3690.00 might be worth a look too.

[Woody]

dzalphabravo:

Real words of wit from a 1 post wonder (well, your lame attempt to insult me would make that 2 posts). I'm not here to be the most polite, the most sensitive, or the nicest person. I offer good sound advice. If it offends you, don't read it. Yes, I can be coarse, brash, and harsh. I'm not used to dealing with little girls who run to mommy because "that big man talked mean" to them.

KYGrassCutter:

I haven't personally used one. The Cub Cadet, Cub Commercial, and Lesco units are all made not far from me by Modern Tool & Die (MTD), so they are real common around here. I believe Mariner (on this board) runs the Cub Commercial units, and is totally pleased with them. I have talked to guys around here that have run even the low-end Cub Commercial units, and they have put them through a lot of abuse. None of them had a single complaint about them.

About the best I can tell you is to look around as long as you can before buying something. DO NOT let some dealer tell you how good fuel injection is, or water cooling. You don't need either one. As far as the B&S engine, I have always had real good luck with them. I believe it has full pressure lubrication and a filter. Those are 2 things you want. For cheap insurance, run a quality synthetic oil (Mobile 1 or Amsoil), and a good filter (Wix or NAPA Gold). The engine will still be running like a top when the rest of the unit has rusted away.

If the 60 inch will fit everywhere on your property, then I can see why you would want one. Just don't get cornered into buying a high-dollar commercial unit if you can get away with something substantially cheaper in price.

I just had a look, and can only find the RTZ42, RTZ50, and the Z-Force series. I would probably go with the Z-Force 50.They have enough confidence to give it a 1 year commercial warranty (which says somethign to me). It's MSRP is $3,999.00, so it shouldn't break the bank.

Good luck in your quest. Look at some other brands too. Maybe you can find a dealer in your area that carries something that will fit you. Some other brands to look at are Hustler, Ferris, Bobcat Ransome, Toro, etc. Search for their websites and look up their high end homeowner/low end commercial units. You should be able to find something out there to suite you.

Woody

[Woody]

^^^ What ODTB said. I looked at the specs on it, and it seems like a lot of mower for the money. Keep the underside of the deck clean, and it should last a long time.

Woody

[KYGrassCutter]

Thanks, Woody & ODTB for the advice. After using the 1959 Ford 541 for the last 16 years(threw a rod last month). I am just hoping to get something with a little longevity to it.

With all the different models, not to mention just the brands, I was getting just a little overloaded with information some good, some bad, and some I have no idea of. LOL

That was the reason I joined several of these forums. To seperate the useless Cr@p from the facts and honest opinions.

[lorenzo piedra]

If you look around on the internet you can usually find a 52" Toro belt drive walk behind for sale for around $1000. Just add a sulky for another $200.

The quality of cut is superior to all the homeowner machines. In fact you will be getting the same exact deck as a $7000 Toro 52" ZTR.

Since the old belt drives on go 5 mph in top gear your clip-rate will not become compromised.

[KYGrassCutter]

Made the decision. Went with the Cub Cadet Z-Force 50. The reasoning was first expense, after looking around in the Lexington to Somerset Area no one except a place in Somerset was discounting the mowers. The one I ended up getting was $4240.00 after taxes. I and the wife figurer that this was a good on to make as our first purchase of this type of mower, and if it turns out I need something bigger then I can look at that next year or even two years down the road. My time is not so expensive that I could really justify spending over $6500.00.

Second, none of the dealers that I either talked to by phone or visited would let me tset drive on my property, only in their parking lots. Of those the Z-Force 50 seems to ride the best and with the least noise.

Third, the hydraulic motors in this unit from the different places on the internet appear to better then those offered by Cub Cadet on the RZT models.

Second the larger number of dealers both in Lexington and Danville will allow me more access in getting any repair parts I need. There is a Dealer in Danville that also can service the unit while it is in warrenty. However after looking at the owner's manual and the parts list there is nothing on it I would be afraid to tackle myself.

Third, I like the deck wash system that they have in place for cleaning underneath the deck. Whether it is really functional or not, I will only find out by using.

Lorzeno P., while the walk behind looks like and option, I have to consider the following. I ruptured my patella tendon a two years back and still do not have all of the movement or standing power I had before the accident. With that said I do not know how well it would take to standing behind the walk-behind for three hours it would take to mow the 6 acres.

I will post more here later on my opinoin about it, along with any problems that develop, as I use it.

[Woody]

I would have chosen the same machine. I think it will do well by you.

Woody

[Chappy]

KYGrassCutter,

I'm very late in joining but just to let you know, I've got a few acres here in Tennessee that are smooth to rutted, I purchased the CC Z50 earlier this season and have nothing but loved it. It cuts well at speed and rides quite well, even on the rough stuff. I had one little learning experience this past week with the drive belt. Somehow a stick managed to lodge up above the deck and as I made my turn it popped the drive belt off the motors. It was 95 degrees and I was not going to layout there in the field and try to tackle getting a belt back on the drive pullys. Later that afternoon I dragged the toolbox and quilt out to the tractor, it had cooled to 92 by this time ;-) but the sun was behind the hill so I figured I would be OK. Anyway, I dropped down and started looking at the belt assembly on the Cub and was embarressed to find that with a simply detact/re-attach of the tension pully spring I had the belt back on and the tractor running in less than 3 minutes! I love that design, the deck belt is almost as easy to thread when you reach that point in your service hours. For the money, I spent about $4000 for mine new from TSC, I can't brag enough about the Cub for moderate (weekly) usage. It took my mowing time from an average of 3.5 hours each Saturday to right at 1.5 hours and I'm 90% complete with all my trimming when I park the Cub so its win-win for me (until my wife discovered I had more time for her honey-do list!). I hope your Cub provides as solid service as mine has to date.

- Chappy

[Billy Alexander]

Where can I find a good discussion about hydraulic motors as I too am a homeowner who would like to buy a low end commercial or residential ZTR.

[MBDiagMan]

I also have first hand experience with a Z-Force, but my results have been very sad and I wish you guys better luck.

Mine is an '04 model which is the same unit EXCEPT it has a B&S 22HP rather than a Kohler and it is 48" instead of 50". I bought it last November. It started using LOTS of oil at about 6 hours and turned out to be engine trouble. I took it 50 miles to the dealer and they put a crankcase breather on it and said that was the trouble but the problem continued. I told them that I would be willing to move to a Tank and they offered me much less than half the original price in trade against LIST price for the tank.

The other downsides to the CC Residential units are: stamped deck, cross bar at the bottom of discharge chute causes jam ups, aluminum spindles are expensive to replace, tires are smaller than they should be for a mower of this size.

The upside for the Z-Force compared to other residential grade mowers; there are plenty of grease fittings which is a plus for the person that will keep them greased, the deck does a beautiful cutting job on a well kept lawn as long as it is not allowed to get very tall, the unit has a good ride due to the pivoting axle, the controls are very responsive.

Compared to many other residential Zero turns they are pretty good units, but for long term reliability they won't hold a candle to a well built true commercial unit.

I ended up trading it for a Bad Boy commercial with a 26HP liquid cooled Kawasaki and got a good trade. I took a washing and it only had 13 hours.

I do all my own service work on everything around here from trucks to tractors to cars and I do FULLY expect this unit to last the rest of my life. I'm 56. I did not buy this unit to one up my neighbors as a previous poster implied would be the case. I live in the boondocks so far from my neighbors that noone will ever know what I mow with except myself and I'm the only person that has to be pleased with the machine.

I am not trying to put down anyones decision or their unit. I just want to offer my first hand experience so that folks can learn from it and make a more informed buying decision than I did.

Billy Alexander,

Here is the short course on hydraulic drives that I had not taken before buying the Z-Force:

The vast majority of residential units use Hydrogear brand integrated drives. These units have the pump and motor all in one neat unit. There are two models. The EZT has a 1/2" shaft and is REALLY flimsy. Avoid the EZT units at all cost. These are used in the Cub Cadet RZT models. The IZT drives are bigger integrated units and have a larger shaft and are a little tougher than the EZT drives. The IZT is the drive used in the Z-Force.

What usually kills the IZT drive is washing the mower and getting water pressured into the vent which will ultimately cause the drive to fail. It is a sealed unit and the fix is to replace the entire unit at a cost of about $600.

To get a good Zero Turn mower, you need to find one with individual pumps and wheel motors. There are MANY on the market, but these type units lower end pricing is about $5,000 or so for a 44" or 48" unit.

I wish I had done my research before purchasing the Z-Force. I am trying to pass on what I learned to help others.

Good luck to all,
Doc