padding the bill-irate homeowner asks for opinions

[perfectlawn]

Okay, what I’m going to ask for an opinion that might be tough for some of you to render, but I’ll ask anyway. I’m a homeowner. I have contracted out many jobs at my present and prior homes over the years and have never come across the problem that I am presented with now. 2 years ago I moved into an older home on 3 acres. 1 acre lawn, 2 acres woods. The woods were a mess. Were never cared for properly. Huge trees down everywhere, limbs hanging precariously ready to fall, rotting trees, gulleys, etc. I decided it needed to be cleaned up both to be safe as well as for esthetics. I got quotes and hired out the job which involved multiple contractors, heavy equipment, dumpsters, topsoil, dozers etc. You get the idea. Months later it’s finally done. I never balked once at the $ because I knew it would be expensive, but it had to be done. The many contractors all billed by the day or portion thereof. I preferred it that way, because I think you get a better job than when you contract a set fee for “the job”. Because we were paying based on time, we kept a log of all time put in. My log always agreed with the contractors log (if anything, we were generous) and everyone got paid and was happy. Then, one of the workers approached me about doing the lawn when it started to grow. He was an old hand at the lawn business, but was now starting out on his own after working for someone for a long time. He wanted the job but couldn’t give me a quote. He said that after the first few mows, he would know. I said okay. He also said that before he would mow, we would have to clean up all the debris that the York rake missed. i.e. small stones, branches, etc, and rake and seed the property. I asked for a quote. He quoted me $23/man-hr. I then got other quotes that came in by the job, not the hour, and were probably going to cost less than his, but I liked this guys enthusiasm, and figured that it would be a good start to a long term relationship taking care of my property. So I gave him the job. Took 2 weeks with about 4-5 guys per day, but the work got done. Then the grass grew and mowing started. Then I get the bill for the clean up. This is the part that disturbs me. Just as I had done with the cleanup, I kept a log of the time these men spent on the job. The landscapers log and my log were off by quite a bit. Everyday, his start times are 45 min earlier than actual, and his end times are 30-45 min later than actual. When I say actual, I counted when the truck pulled up, until it left, (so he did get paid for loading and unloading.) When asked about this, the landscaper told me that he has to pay his workers from the moment they show up at his place of business, not when they get to my job. In other words, he was charging me for travel time to and from my home, at $23/hr x5. There were other variations also, such as when he asked if we wanted him to bring some hay to cover a small seeded area with. He quoted me $10/bale.I said okay to 5 bales. BUT, he took 2 guys 2 hours to get it when it’s available locally). That’s $23x2x2= $92 labor to pick up hay that I could have had delivered for $30. Then 1 man left for “a meeting” for an hour (over and above a paid lunch hour). I was charged for this meeting time as well. One day one man couldn’t make it, so they substituted the 14 year old son of one of the workers (would be okay except a-not legal, b-didn’t work very much)
I don’t ever balk at paying someone what I have agreed to, even if it’s high. An agreement is an agreement. But it does bother me to get a bill that looks very padded. I have never heard of a landscaper charging travel time like this. None of my neighbors have ever heard of this. Certainly he should have mentioned it with the quote if he intended to charge for this. The question is, what do I do now. The guy is reliable, and does good work, but this is absurd. Maintaining my property is not cheap, (last year I spent 10’s of thousands with the cleanup and all, next year will be about 20K in new plantings, and all future years will be about 10k per year just in maintenance.) You would think that he wouldn’t play games like this and risk losing a valuable account, but I guess not. I will probably fire him, but I wanted to hear thoughts from other pro’s first.

[Ric]

perfectlawn

First of all I am not familiar with New Jersey labor rates. However I would think New Jersey is higher than the national average which is closer to $ 35.00 per man hour. IMHO I would think at $ 23.00 this guy is cheating him self out of Workers Comp and contractor liability insurance and passing both the savings and Liability on to you. That Liability just might be unemployment and State income tax also??

The bottom line is his guy found himself a good gig by stealing his bosses customer. Probably stole some of his bosses employee also. You were the Fence by buying the stolen services.

It is better for you to kindly pay the bill and not argue. Simply tell the man you are over budget and want to put the project on hold for now. You will call him, do not call you and have a nice day. Then find yourself a Licensed contractor from the Better Business Bureau and start over again on the completion. Once you lose face in your contractor nothing will be right after that. Save your self the stress and get a new man to finish the job.

If I sense that a customer is unhappy with my work or price, I don't want to work for that customer any more. You would not have gone to the trouble of asking here if you were not unhappy.

[Seascape]

It took 5 guys 1 month to prep and seed 1 acre? Or did i misunderstand?

His $23 per man hr is a pretty good rate but he really got lucky pulling that hourly job. He wont get that off very often,,,, he'll need to learn how to prepare a bid if he wants to stay in business. Especially on prep and seed 1 acre. My hourly would have been $65 man #1 $44 man #2 and $35 man #3 beyond. At those rates i would have only asked you reimburse material and equipment and we settle up once weekly. Something along those lines anyhow.

I only would have charged you "travel time" if material or equipment were being picked up or dropped off before or after the job day. And i would have only charged you for man #1. Otherwords if 3 guys were in the truck youd only be getting charged for the driver. I would be making enough to pay my own costs for travel.

As far as the straw,,, ya you took a hit. But i would simply chalk that up and perhaps talk w/ him about the travel times. See if he will pay his own costs to get to work. really if i was him id be staging eqipment at the site if i was running a crew everyday to eliminate that loading in the morning at the shop,, thus to get clocked in quicker and start making money.

I never would have worked a 14 yr old on the site,,, i just wouldnt have gotten those man hrs that day. Might not like it but whatta you do? I would pay him for that but ask he keep adult labor onsite from here out.

Now,,, i dont know what the atmosphere is like now that youve had a initial confrontation w/ him concerning this travel time but he is more than likely disappointed. You may suggest to him to increase his hrly rate or learn how to bid so he can see his travel times paid.

[perfectlawn]

Ric,

Thank you for the reply. Perhaps a $23/hr labor rate was good. I'm not sure. But that's not the point. In my view, if he needs $35/hr, he should quote $35/hr. I may or may not have taken it. But be upfront. As far as stealing business, I didn't explain it well. The landscaper in question, worked many years for a lawn maintenance firm. They layed him off over a year ago. Last fall, needing work, he networked and found a temporary job with a tree removal service. He told me that he tree service owner was a friend of his and had hired him specifically for my job because it was large and they needed more men. (the tree service doesn't do landscaping/lawns). While working for the tree service on my job is when he approached me about wanting the job of maintaining the property. He explained how he had been layed off last year by his former lawn service and that the tree work was only temporary and that he planned to start his own lawn service in the spring. That was last fall. This spring he completed the work. It's all done. He's been mowing it for 3 months now, but I only now got the bill for the work. So, I don't need to hire anyone to finish the job, it's finished. I just need to decide if I want to keep this guy on to mow, mulch etc. Balancing his relaible good work with the fact that he pads the bill unfairly. By the way, he charges me $130 to mow the 2.3 acres every week. Not cheap by the competition's standards, even for this area.

[Woody]

At $23.00 an hour, the guy obviously doesn't know what the hell he is doing. Any LEGITIMATE business HAS to charge more than that, because their cost of doing business is about, or slightly more, than is that guys RATE.

Any legitimate business is going to charge for travel time. No matter whether it is listed or not, you are paying for it somewhere. If the company had to pay for all the travel time, the company wouldn't exist in a few short months.

Take no offense, but you sound like the "micro-manager" type to me. I make it REAL CLEAR to all of my prospective customers that I will NOT be micromanaged! The FIRST time one of them says something about how many hours I have been on the job, etc., and lets me know they are spying my every move, I tell them I am close to walking off. I SURE AS HELL don't sit and take notes while YOU work, do I??? Imagine how INSULTING it is to have someone logging notes on your every move. No way I would stand for it.

Seriously, you and I would NEVER have a business relationship. First off, I give a price for the JOB. Since you want a JOB done, that is what I will give you a price for. If you wanted me to break down my price, I would just smile, and tell you that you are NOT my accountant, so honestly, you really don't need to see it broken down. Since you SHOULD be comparing prices based on the TOTAL JOB PRICE, why would you even need to see any other numbers? IF you paid BY THE JOB, you wouldn't have to sit and log hours of every contractor doing work for you, now would you?

You should probably fire the guy, for his own good. He isn't charging enough per hour, so now he has to add some time in here or there to try and BREAK EVEN. If you informed him that he should be charging say $35.00 a man hour, and insisted on paying $35.00 a man hour, I bet your hours and his hours would be about exact. You make it sound like it is the PRINCIPLE of the thing, and not the money. You feel he is being dishonest on the hours. Why not offer up the fair market rate, and discuss adjusting the hours?

Like I said, no offense, but I'll tell you where I stand on the whole thing. It sounds to me like you hire workers who offer the cheapest price. And you know what? You get what you pay for! Those guys probably HAVE TO put up with you watching over their shoulders. Me?? I don't need customers like you. And I don't want them either. I give a SINGLE PRICE for a job. Period. My customers KNOW I am a PROFESSIONAL. The are well aware that I don't need to be spied upon, have my hours logged, be told or shown how to do things, be told where to purchase supplies, or anything of that nature. They know my prices may be a little higher, but they are FAIR. Fair not just for the customer, but for ME AS WELL!

My advice? Start getting 10 bids on every job. Total price for the job too, not all broken down. As a consumer, your only concern should be the TOTAL price. Then, pick the contractor from the TOP FOUR PRICES! They are MOST LIKELY to know what they are doing. Then GO GET YOURSELF A HOBBY! Take up golf, sailing, fishing, whatever. Go stare at the hot women in the mall if nothing else. Let your contractor DO THE JOB without babysitting him.

Woody

[perfectlawn]

Mike,

It took them about 2 weeks (10 work days) to rake/clean/seed a little under 2 acres. I started with 1 acre lawn, had 2 acres of woods cleaned up, then had him and his crew rake and seed the new 2 acres. The # workers per day varied usually 4-5. They didn't use any equipment other than rakes, and wheel barrows which took no time to load/unload.

[Seascape]

It took them about 2 weeks (10 work days) to rake/clean/seed a little under 2 acres.

Gotta love them hourly jobs huh gentlemen?

[Ric]

perfectlawn

Season is about over, let him finish mowing if your happy with the work.

If you are unhappy with the price then start looking now for next year. But go check out the Yards that the proposed new service provider does already. Be sure to check a list not just his favorite buddies. Remember High Quality and Low Price are always not on the same page. New Jersey has a lot more Labor Burden than Florida does. My labor burden is 30%.

[lclandscapes]

Ditto on what Ric and Woody have said. If the job is done and you are hapy with teh way it looks, pay the man. As Woody said, I or We dont need babysitters, and homeowners keeping our books for us. In you first post you said its not about the money, but it is. Pay the man what you owe him, get rid of him and get the cheap guys to work for next time.

[perfectlawn]

Woody,

Calm down. I think you've got it all wrong. First of all, I learned to keep a log of the hours because that is what the initial tree contractor specifically asked me to do. He was very lax and didn't keep track very well. When we totaled it up, my hours were MORE than his and I paid him more than he was expecting. Why, because I'm honest and fair. You're right about it being the principal, not the money. Travel time is part of overhead just like depreciation on equipment, insurance etc. Nobody itemizes insurance, equipment depreciation, gas, oil, repairs etc. on a job like this. It's overhead and calculated into what the owner has to charge for the job. Once calculating overhead and salary, he can give a quote. He should give a quote that covers these things plus a fair profit for himself, not give a quote that's too low and then make it up by adding on travel time. Why not just add on insurance and equipment maintenance fees to each job after the hourly quote. I bet that would go over real well. Fact is, in my part of the state it is common knowledge that homeowners are overcharged regularly for all sorts of repairs and maintenance, compared with neighboring towns. Why? Because it's a wealthy area and most people couldn't care, and the service providers know this. But I'm not wealthy and principals are very important to me. I'd sooner agree to pay someone a higher price if I trusted that I was being treated fairly and wouldn't have any surprises in the end, than pay a lower cost less reliable crew. In fact - this guy I hired WAS the most expensive. His bill ends up about $3000 over the next closest bid I had.

I'm not cheap. I just beleive in being upfront. It's the principle.

[Seascape]

What was the hourly rate for the crews that cleared your woods?

[perfectlawn]

What was the hourly rate for the crews that cleared your woods?

That job required different work on different days depending upon the weather (what they were able to do when it was wet for example) and the particular stage that they were at on the job. They cahrged by rthe day or portion of a day. Equipment operators were typically here working alone and got $500-600 day for their labor only (winter rates). When trees needed to be cut up chipped etc, the 4-5 man crew got $1000/day in the winter (off season) and 1250/day on season. Dumpsters/equipment were extra above this. It took months.

[Scaper-S2k]

From what I read, it doesn't sound like you are a penny pincher at all. So seeing some of the wasted money when you KNOW you are paying per hour would aggrivate anyone. You mentioned something about hourly timing being better? I disagree. And I think you do now as well. They don't care to speed up because they are under NO time crunch. You see, if they are billing you hourly, you are the one that must snap the whip. When they are doing it per job, the biz owner is the one snapping the whip.

The straw pickup was a bit much. I would rack that up as a loss.

BUT, I would not pay for the 14 year olds time. No way.

I also agree with Seascape, there was too much wasted time. Using the proper equipment, clearing 2 acres, adding topsoil, and seeding wouldn't take that long, especially with 4-5 guys. It sounds like the guy was 'milking it' to get more $$$ out of the job. If it took my guys that long, they would all be fired. Hell, if it took them even half that long, they would be fired!

[Seascape]

Ok heres what i think so far.

The job took entirely way to long. Turf and woods. I dont understand how guys have this long to drag a job out. I can only putt around on a job for so long.

The rates seem low. $1250 a day for a 4-5 man crew w/ a chipper or grapple? You made out well! But on the other hand if you were going to pay me these rates for "months" id take the job. More than likely i would have showed up w/ a dozer and 18" chipper w/ a couple bobcats and grapples. I would have been out of your hair in no more than a week and left a PROPOSAL on your door for the turf portion of this job.

These guys prepped 2 acres w/ rakes in 10 days? Your lucky if you like it. Its a 1.5 day job w/ the proper equipment.

More than likely $35 per sounded great to this guy at first. But he probally pulled that # out his ass. Once he worked a few days he realized he wasnt making as much as it sounds. The "travel time" proablly got thrown in later to "pad the bill" just like you suspect.

He had 4 guys onsite everyday but your hrs were only off 45 minutes at each end of the day. Therefore i dont think he charged you travel time for every man. Probally just the driver.

The contractor that asked you to track his hrs for him must be a alcohloic or something. I dont know whats up w/ that. Said he dont keep track very well? Or he cant get guys to fill out daily forms? Either way that wasnt your Q to monitor your lawnboy down to the nearest 3/4 of an hr. If you did that to me i would have asked for my check (no bargaining) and gave you a 10 day notice on the maintenance. But i assure you i wouldnt have 1 problem looking you in the eye when i handed you the bill.

You said theyve been mowing 3 months but you just got the bill for the turf install? Whyd it take so long to get you billed for that portion of the job?

In my book $130 is reasonable to perform that cut. Especially if it used to be woods. My guess is it could be a very tech cut. If you like his work,, and he is reliable,,, id really try to work this dispute out w/ him and let this go,,, than keep him around to continue the maintenance program for you.

Just so you know,, i have several residential accounts of this caliber. 3-7 acre sites ,,about 2-3 mowable,,rest woods along Big darby Creek here in central ohio. We run more than 500 man hrs per on a few of them per year up and above the written maintenance. Ive never once had a client run a tally on the hrs.

My final thought,,, this is a good account. Or could be. If your happy w/ his performance and hes happy w/ $35 per hr. You should both try real hard to work this out. For both of your benefit.

[Ric]

perfectlawn

I have to agree with the rest of the members, Months is way to long for two acres.

You said Equipment??? what equipment were they using? My skid steer with Grapple bucket should clear even the heaviest wooded acre in a few days. Hauling away debris should have been contracted to a 18 wheeled dump truck. Larger jobs it is cheaper haul than to chip. However blowing chips on the ground can be very cost effective for smaller branches.