Looking For Help From The Pros!

[C&PLAWNCARE]

I am new to this forum and find it an excellent resource for the lawn business. I have read alot of postings from people who want to get started in the lawn care business and I want to also get started in a full time lawn care busness. I have been running my lawn care busness part-time for only one year now I also had a full time job as of yesterday, was layed off (this sucks) but any way I am wanting to go full time with my busness, but the only money I have to get things going in the right direction is my 401K money. Its a large amount but it is also my retirement money I am 38 years old and I really could use some good advice. What would you all do?

[andersc1]

C&PLAWNCARE,
Boy, sounds like you've ended up between a rock and a hard place. When I started the business I jumped in head first. I invested initially around $17,000 on equipment and another $1,300 on yellow page advertising to help get things kicked off. The yellow pages didn't come out until August and I started the business in May, so things were pretty slow at first. This is even with me actively trying to pick up new customers. I will admit though, that since this was just a part time job for me and I had a very good plant job that my rush to pick up new clients could probably have been more sincere. But if the role was reversed, and I was in a position were I would need to invest my 401K in the business, or at least a portion of it in order to get me where I am today, I would do it in a heartbeat.

I now have around $60,000 in equipment with a full time crew working 5 and sometimes 6 days a week, and spend around $5,000 a year on yellow page advertising. It has taken me 3 years to get there, but with no more effort then I initially put into picking up new clients, I guess I have done alright. Our company has doubled in size each year we have been in business so far, and I am constantly planning for the future to insure that we keep up that trend. I am now trying to run the business like a business and am planning for the future. There is very little job security when working for someone else, and it is my intention to be in the position by year 7 that perhaps I will not need that full time job any longer.

There are other companies that I have seen recently that have popped up and came out like someone lit there ass on fire. You see little signs in yards everywhere and I find myself bidding against them on commercial jobs now. They will probably do very well in the business because they are very hungry. It's sad how having a good paying job to fall back on tends to make one complacent at times.

If your willing to invest the money initially to get equipment you can depend on, spend the required money for decent advertising, and hustle your butt off trying to scrounge up new business, then yes, I believe you can make a go of it. There are tons of people on this site which will disagree with spending the money on good equipment right off the bat. They say, get what you can afford and let your growing business buy you better and better equipment. But if your already unemployed, you don't have the benefit of being able to wait until things start growing in order to be able to expand. You need to be able to tackle whatever jobs you can manage to hustle up between now and winter.

Personal Suggestions:
*Concentrate on commercial accounts. They will be your bread and butter accounts to get you through your first lawn care winter.

*Don't lowball, but make sure you are the best bid in order to start generating cash flow. Checks coming in the mail will help ease some of the tension. With each successful contract signing, slowly increase your pricing until you are bidding were you should be for the services you are performing.

*Promote your business with everyone you come in contact with. Let everyone know that you are in this full time now and they should call on you if they need anything done. Everyone is a potential customer or at least knows someone who is.

*Every store manager or business owner that you are personal friends with, is now potentially a source for another contract. Let them know what you are doing and ask them what it would take to get their business to help you out. If they aren't in a position to make the contract decisions, then try to get them to find out how much the business they work for is currently paying for lawn service and then come back and talk to the person who IS responsible and somehow manage to bid just below what they are currently paying for service. Get the friend to put in a good word for you too.

*Do an excellent job in order to get good referrals.

*Cut out useless spending unless it is going to help your business grow.

*Try to convince residential accounts that it will benefit them to sign up for an annual service contract. Similar to commercial accounts, they help keep the bills paid during lull months.



These are just my rantings and opinions. Good luck with whatever your decision should be, and keep in mind that you can do whatever it is you set your mind to do as long as you give it 100%.

Curtis

[Ric]

C&PLAWNCARE

andersc1 advice is not wrong, Just a little different than mine. He covered many of the bases. My advice might be a little more Conservative. Yes it takes money to make money but I say hold off on hitting the 401K. There is a 70% failure rate in this business. Now much of this can be contributed to easy entrance and the type of people attracted to the industry. Do what you must to stay afloat with out hitting the 401K. This time of the year can be good for picking up accounts unhappy with there present service. The fact is many start ups are giving up the business and leaving their accounts high and dry. However Spring is the best time of year to advertise and push for accounts. If you have to work nights at 7-11 do so.

I also would advise you to stay with residential accounts although you need more than commercial accounts the Margin is more of a known factor. Commercial Accounts will lock you into a contract that might not be to your advantage. In most cases commercial accounts you are dealing with a bean counter. Before you approach Commercials have your ducks in a row.

Up sell your present customers and solicit there neigbor's. Try to offer handy man service, anything to get you through the winter. Next spring reevaluate your goals and decide if you want to tap the 401K.

[GeeVee]

The "headed in the right direction" part is the only thing I could criticize.

My suggestion to you is to not touch it (401k).

You may ahve a bit of equipment already, stick with it.

You don't mention much of other factors, such as wife family mortgage etc, so it would be hard to make anything other than topical suggestions, which is fine.

A truck, trailer and mower could all be had for cheaps, used and will suffice. two stoke utilitty pieces should be bought new, staying away from do-all attachment types.

Word of mouth and target advertising (cloverleafing current accounts) are your best bet.

When you are getting enoiugh cash to flow, then you can upgrade to newer equip. If you had enough cash to buy a "package", I'd almost say go. But your 401 K is not really liquid enough, and has far more value staying where it is.

Nothing is worse than starting out behind the eight ball in debt, compared to cash coming in has no predetermined place to be, other than your pocket.

I know you can't paint from an empty bucket, but blazing through a wad of cash isn't the answer. I am a tool junkie, been there, done that, bought a shirt.

If you would, have a look at expenses you need to pay in order to live. Compare them to what costs you would have if you blew your wad. (Not the same, I assure you.).

I thnk next week you will find some real stisfaction being out on your own. You now have full time to dedicate, and to reap rewards.

Resist the urge to buy a huge stack of stuff right now.

A question? Are you mechanically adept? What is your marital status? IS there a chance you could work part itme for a LC Co?

More detail gets better answers.......

good luck, pm for specific answers

[GeeVee]

Ric is right. Every portion.....

You will need a mix of Resi and comm's....... to start. Good cash flow, and every commercial contract holder has a home he has to go to at night. This is a major portion of my business. I may have (for example) 19 Clients, but they represent fifty accounts...... do the math.

[C&PLAWNCARE]

I would like to say thanks to all 3 of you for resonding to my help. Here is more info on my current subject.
Yes I do have a lovely wife of 17 yrs. and 3 lovely kids ranging from ages 5yrs to 17yrs. of age, and a mortgage (of 4 yrs.) For equipment I have a 98 Dodge Durango (that is not paid for yet), Trailer, 1 ridding lawn mower (17 hp. 38" cut wizard 5 yrs. old but runs great) and 1 push lawn mower (7.5 hp. 22" mulcher craftman 2yrs. old) 1 weedwacker(new), 1 blower (old), 1 elc. 22" heddger (new). All equipment is payed for and my first month of busness paid for it all. (not my truck) What equipment do you all think I need to get my busness up and going. For under 8K.??

GEEVEE & RIC my wife really liked what you said about not touching my 401K but she is a little more Conservative than I am. She also liked your advice to andersc1 GeeVee & Ric please dont get me wrong I also really liked everything you both said and will take it all to hart but what andersc1 said blew me away and I am going to jump into this head first but with the equipment i have and only useing a third of my 401k I can only jump into with 10K Curtis I know this is alot less then what you started out with but what do you think?
I am truly going to put 110% of myself to my busness and make this dream of mine truly happen.
I know only 30% of lawn busness make it happen and Curtis looking at you web page and hearing what you said you are one of those 30% and I to am one day going to be one of thoes 30% so by putting yours and GeeVee, and RIC advice together I beleave I to can make it as one of the 30% I just wish I could do it with out useing my 401K but I dont see a way right know.

GeeVee, what do you mean by Cloverleafing Current accounts?

Ric, I am one thursty Jackass! haha

AGAIN THANK YOU!
ALL 3 OF YOU HAVE GREAT ADVICE. PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

MOW ON!
RONNIE (C&P LAWN CARE)

[Ric]

Ronnie

If your credit is haft way good you may want to buy a new mower on time. A 36 to 48 will do most lawns but the size depends on your market which we don't know. Do YoU ??? A Walk behind with velky might be you best all around start up machine, Double Hydro model for sure and a local dealer for the much needed service and support. However Equipment is getting the cart before the donkey.

Clover leafing is a term used to mean knocking on the neighbors door of existing accounts. The idea is to market to a tight knit area where travel time is held to a minim. Many times late in the afternoon people are home and outside doing some activity. This is the best time to catch them, but it is also the time you might want to be home with your own family.

What haft of the cutter don't know is fertilizer can be your biggest sales tool. If your customer have a dark green lawn all the time, their neighbor wants you to care for their lawn.

Good Luck I am sure GeeVee will have some more advice for you also.

[GeeVee]

You are most welcome.

Cloverleafing is visiting each neighbor with a flyer or doorknob hanger every other week for the next nine weeks. Each side, three across the street, three on the backyard side.

Don't hesitate to tell each existing client you are now Full time, and would appreciate referrals, even to their bosses. (commercial)

Give away no service, ever. Maybe Poinsettias at Christmas, but never your time.

dUDE, you have the tools, leave your 401 K alone. Who handles the family budget? Agree to try and replace that WEEKLY paycheck first, with what you have.

When you get to a predetermined weekly income then you can get a new compliment of the hand tools for they are important right away. Take real good care of the small mower, they need more frequent maintenance. The riding tractor- ride a bit hard and when you can, buy a new Belt WB for cash.

Line trimmer blower stick edgeris right a 1k. You need commercial duty.....

Perhaps you are mechanically adept enough to purchase a used WB?

Be good to your Durango, and make it earn its keep for the moment. You could get away with a $2500 half ton pickup sometime after you have thirty-fifty acounts.

I'd hate to see you have to purchase of bunch of things you already have. Snowballing purchases because of this is new or that won't fit or this size something means I have to buy one of these also......... Unnecessary.

Knock on doors..... Do the percuts, get monthly's as you go. Every start-up has to begin with the percuts for the first two years so don't be shy getting a good price for them and communicating time is money. Your customer service skills will get better as you go, so don't be afraid to tell someone Time+level of difficulty=price.

Do walk away from a job every once in a while.

The 401 k is not "free money", if you use it, you will still feel you have taken on debt. The mental drain of being a solo op is all about the GREEN.

Because I see both sides to an argument, I'll offer this.

The manufacturers (Husky) are getting real good at offering packages, designed at financing with a prefferred direct lender. Your bank where your mortgage and car loan might be would be an indirect lender. They cannot compete with the direct lender. In your case, you are paying cash (401), so a better price could be negotiated. Equipment might be margin-ed at 3-15%, so there is not much room to dicker prices, but, some. Lesco is a decent source for your basic needs, too.

Once again, realize it may not be that hard to replace your previous paycheck with what you have. Then whats left over, save to put towards cash purchases. You'll be fine with simple mechanical pieces (Belt WB) for the next two years until the new care smell wears off of being in business for yourself. By then you will have plenty of cash flow to buy the ZTR, Hydro Walk, and mac daddy handheld arsenal.

For your wife:

Be glad I didn't tell him to go out and find a new job.

"How's the job hunting going?"

"Not so good for me, but I found you a second job, you start at 7."

TeeHee

[GeeVee]

Just read Ric latest reply.

I maintain that the belt WB is the workorse of the industry for a reason. Least moving parts and user serviceable. Hydro anything is least user servicable. I did my own, but it still cost the down time.

True the commercial equip is most efficient, but you wont need it until you have more accounts than time.......

I am most concerned about you replacing your previous income without spending.

You WILL be BLEEDING cash outflow for incidentals and consumables. Yard sale for rakes and shovels and wheel barrows. Think thrifty.

I bet with your part time stuff plus what you get this week with your fresh face, you will be replacing your income in a month.

Bware the late start you are getting and be on the lookout for the labor intensive clean ups coming your way. Schedule them.

Network your friends, referals only. Don't work for friends or family.

[Ric]

GeeVee

Here in my part of the world Gear drive W/B Belts Slip in the wet grass and in July and August when you need them most, they are not giving good performance. They also are harder on the operator than Hydros. Hydros are easier to use in tight areas. Yes the Belt drives are cheaper and more powerful and give excellent cuts. Maybe in an area where rain fall is not so great they will work better. Stone and I have had this discussion many times. I had a Lesco W/B that was used very little and sold cheap to a home owner with big property.

[The Eraser]

Do NOT touch your 401K !

Ronnie,

In no way should you touch your 401K in this case. Think back on the hard work you have done to build this 401K, and then look at your "lovely wife of 17 yrs. and 3 lovely kids ranging from ages 5yrs to 17yrs. of age, and a mortgage (of 4 yrs.)" and realize why you have the 401K. It is there for your later years, when you need it the most, a time to enjoy the front porch swing and grandchildren.

I would suggest that you simply take time to ask more questions and lay out a good plan to get going. Getting into your 401K is not a good idea. I believe you said you would use about 1/3 of it, but do you realize that you will also pay a huge penalty for dipping into it early, to the tune of around 40-50%. It isn't worth it, when there are other ways. You have enough equipment to get started it seems, but even the purchase of a new mower does not warrant touching the 401K. The only reason to dip into your 401K is to avoid bankruptcy, and you are not there thankfully.

Look, I am not even considering your business venture as a reason for this answer. It just isn't wise to make this move.

At the end of the day, always listen to your wife. They are focused on security, and usually have a great sense of what is a good move, and what isn't. If she isn't fully on board, that tells you something.

I leave you with this:

"A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life." Proverbs 31:10-12

I wish you well in your efforts and hope everything works well for you and your family. I just hope you reconsider this move on your 401K, as it would cost you far more than 1/3, and would also take away so much of what you and your family will need down the road.

[perenlawn]

Ronnie,
Just to tell you something when we were considering my dh's 401K for help a few years ago. This came direct from our financial broker. Say you take out 10K from your 401K now... and let's say it is valued (currently) at 45K. You are same age as us.. (37 and 40). When we retire, if left untouched and reasonable growth is expected... the value of the 401K is expected to be about 250K or more. By taking out the 10K now... that lowers your overall growth and in actuality you are losing closer to 75K or more due to penalties, the lost interest over the next 25 years and compounding!

We were told that unless you are desperate, it was not a wise decision to touch that money... however, there are always exceptions and a financial advisor that has your best interest at heart is your best bet. They can show you by amortizing out the schedule just how much money your would be losing/saving by accessing those funds. Talk to them to help you make your choice.

Is there a possibility of getting money/loan from a family investor? It sounds like you have a good start. I agree w/the purchase of a good walk behind w/Sulky. We started w/that, a push mower, my dh's truck (was paid for) and he did by a trailer and of course trimmers, edgers, etc. But we bought the walk behind used from another scaper and the push mower was new and of course the trimmers were new and trailer. We had a minimal investment that was paid for within the first couple months.

We have chipped away at purchasing items gradually. Now we purchased a nice used dump truck, stock pile mulch, have a backhoe to load with and other jobs and bought another commercial mower this year.

Good luck and these people are soooo informed and give so much good advice. I wish you the best.

Perenlawn

[andersc1]

C&PLawnCare,
Boy, talk about putting a guy on the spot. If you're going to do this, then we've got to make sure you are successful at it. Otherwise I will never hear the end of it from the rest of these fine folks.

As far as equipment goes, I started out with the following items:

1). 16ft. Tandem axle lowboy with a storage box and weedeater racks. $1,600

2). Gravely 60" ZTR. Felt I needed this because in this area there are a lot of houses that sit on big yards and I didn't want to pass up better paying accounts. One of the first dozen accounts that I sold was a 13 acre estate for a doctor. But if I was going to be primarily canvasing residential accounts in sub-divisions I would probably save this purchase for a later time when you can put it to more use. $7,300

3). A Sutech Stealth 33" walk behind (OK guys, no jokes about the Sutech. I didn't know any better at the time and it was within my budget). I still have it in the shop but it hasn't been cranked in over a year. Worked good for the first year I used it but I soon out grew it's potential. Cuts good on straight flat yards, but not worth a damn on slopes and ditches. Tends to scalp to much, and don't think about mowing anything that is too over grown either. It did serve it's purpose though and it got me through until I could afford a better commercial walk behind mower. $1,400

4). Stihl FS85 Multi-Tool string trimmer. One of the best purchases I made. Never had the first problem with any of the attachments not working or with the trimmer itself. Bought the edger, reciprocating clipper and string trimmer attachments. Spent a little money on this but it saved me from having to buy all those individual tools. $650

5). Shindaiwa Hedge Clippers. Still have the original clipper today and running strong. $300


6). 1995 Ford F-150 work truck. Vinyl seats and a good tool box with a 351 gas guzzler. $4,000

7). Stihl BR-420 Backpack blower. Never have had the first bit of problems out of this either and still have the first original one purchased. $400

8). The smallest display ad I could get in a yellow page book which serviced my entire area. $1,300

9). Assorted hand tools (ie: shovels, rakes, brooms, etc.) $100


The first couple of months I sweated my decision every day. Especially when I would sit back and look at all the equipment that I had purchased and the fact that I was only mowing my yard and my mothers yard. Both for free mind you. Then a friend who also owns a lawn company passed a name on to me for a guy in my area who was needing service. I called the guy up and went out and gave him a bid on doing his hedges and mowing the grass. I got the bid and still cut this guys yard today. That was my first real account and boy was I proud.

I ran an ad on a local internet classifieds site for lawn care services and surprisingly started getting some calls. Things really didn't start picking up for me though until that yellow page ad came out in the yellow pages. If I had it all to do over again, I would have timed my business startup around that ad coming out. I think it certainly would have made for less stress on my part at the time. Another friend of mine owned a mobile home park which currently had someone cutting the grass and had been cutting the grass there for years. When all of a sudden the guy graduated from college and up and dropped the lawn business, well needless to say I was all over it. Picked that account up and serviced the place myself for the rest of that year. Took me 8 hours to service it by myself. And that's 8 hours with no breaks or lunches. 4 hours mowing and 4 hours trimming. Again, I wouldn't have been able to service this account had I not invested initially in the ZTR.

I picked up a few more residential accounts and two commercial accounts. One convience store which I basically did at cost just so I could have a commercial account on my resume, and the other was a mini storage facility. Neither one was big money, but if you're thinking big and after commercial business you need some references.

That pretty much was it for year one. I was making enough money to take out what loans I had made initially for equipment and the such and able to put a couple of bucks in my pocket. Again though, I wasn't out knocking on doors either. If I can get in the door to give an estimate, I can generally convince the person to choose me. But I am terrible at cold calling customers. Call it lack of self confidence or whatever, I just suck at it.

Year two started out good with the phone ringing and picking up new accounts. Another lawn service in a neighboring city called up one day and asked if I would be interested in purchasing his accounts because he was quiting the business. I met him at a Jack in the Box, bought him lunch and we talked. He had 18 residential accounts that he wanted to sell for $100 total. I took a gamble and wrote the guy a check for $100 and he gave me all the information on the accounts. He then went and called each customer and told them that he was going out of business but a good friend of his was going to take over the account and would be calling them up. He called me a few days later and let me know that he had spoken with everyone and that they were fine with the deal. I made my $100 back the first week I started servicing the accounts.

By this time I was starting to get pretty busy and could really use some help. By chance, a hispanic guy called and asked if I needed any help. I again gambled and said I was looking for a part time guy. I agreed to meet them at a Wal Mart parking lot and about 20 of them come piling out of an extended cab pickup truck. We talked and decided that I would give one of them a shot which happened to speak the best English. He worked with me for that entire year part time and was one of the best employees you could ask for. Not only did he have experience in the business, he also was a jamb-up small engine mechanic. He even rebuilt a trimmer for me (new rings, piston, etc.) and had it going in the 45 minutes it took me to mow an office by myself.

I ran additional ads in a local yellow page book and really started getting calls. I had to use an answering machine to catch messages when I wasn't at home. That did hurt me though. I found through experience that only about 1 out of every 10 calls actually left a message on the machine. The rest just hung up the phone and called the next one in the book until they finally reached a human voice. One of the best decisions I made was to give an answering service a try. It cost me $55 a month for the service, but I no longer was missing any calls. By the end of year 2 I was storing away 4 digit figures in the bank and was upgrading my equipment. This didn't come without a toll though. Remember, I had a full time plant job working shift work and if I wasn't at the plant, I was mowing grass. I couldn't have done it without my wife's support though. She was patient on all those days that I would leave at the crack of dawn and not come home until 9pm at night for days on end. Our time together was few and far between, but she stuck by me during this time. I kept telling her that in order to make this work, I needed to pay my dues. Nothing in life comes easy, or at least it doesn't for me. I can say though that by the end of year 2 I was starting to show signs of burnout. Sales I'm not good at, hard work I am. And I certainly did my share of that the first couple of years.

I bit the bullet at the start of year 3 and said that I was going to hire someone even if I had to pay them out of my own pocket. Business started out with a whirl wind, and I not only hired 1 employee I ended up hiring 2. I'm not up to 3 full time guys and we will be moving into an actual office/warehouse space here in the next month. I am currently talking to that buddy of mine that owns a lawn service about servicing his accounts for him. He doesn't want to run a crew any more, but he does still want the tax benefits of owning the business. If that happens, I will be adding another crew soon.

As far as any suggestions, well here are a few more:

* Let your wife cold call commercial accounts. For whatever reason, people tend to take the time to listen to a woman on the phone over a man.

* Get commercial insurance. I can give you the name and a # of my insurance agent where I have my commercial insurance through. Cost me $408 a year for 1mil coverage. You'll need this in order to bid on a lot of commercial customers.

* Have some door hangers printed up (ie: NEBS, etc.) for $50 or $60 bucks and hang one on every neighbors door of any house you service. The ones I had printed up have a place for you to put a dollar amount for what it would cost the customer to have you service their yard. Peoplel like up front pricing, and lawn maintenance is no different.

*Get business cards and give one to everyone that will stick their hand out. Even if the person doesn't need service, you want to get your companies name out to anybody that will listen.

*Every house or business you pass by that looks even remotely overgrown, sick your wife on em.

*Increase your prices as you go so you don't end up in the situation where you are booked solid but not making the profits you really need to.

*Get magnetic signs for your truck. How are potential customers going to know who it is doing the excellent job on the neighbors house if you don't have a sign.

*Make sure you are on every bid list in town. Most commercial businesses start taking bids in September at the end of the fiscal year. Get your name in the hat so that you can be notified when they are accepting bids.

*Keep every and I mean EVERY receipt you get. You'll need these come tax time.


I can tell you from sorta tracking trends in my area, that we get more residential calls this time of year then in the spring. My personal opinion is that in the spring you get all the one year wonders out knocking on doors constantly, so nobody really has the need to make a phone call. But by mid summer when the scrubs can't keep up the level of service that they require, they start shopping around for legitimate businesses to take care of them. Spring we get more landscaping and mulch jobs, as well as calls from commercial accounts wanting proposals.

I really hate to tell you to spend your hard earned 401K money, especially at a time when money and income is deffinately going to be one of your biggest concerns. It all depends on how you want to get started. I'm terrible at easing into anything and tend to jump into stuff head first. This deffinately can backfire on you if it doesn't work out the way you need it to.

GeeVee is right, you will be BLEEDING cash outflow for incidentals and consumables. Gas alone cost me around a $1,000 a month these days, and that's not including any gas for my personal vehicles. Things will break, and you will need additional equipment. The flip side is, if you don't buy good quality stuff now and just use you residential equipment commercially, you will be buying new equipment right around the corner anyway. Choose your equipment wisely, and allow room for expansion. Equipment that serves more than one purpose is useful and can kill two birds with one stone.

I'm far from being an expert on the lawn business, and guys like Scaper, Seascape, etc. have far more experience in the business than I ever hope to have. You alone bear the weight of your decisions, and thus you should do whatever your gut tells you to do. It's seldom wrong.

If there is anything I can do to help, copies of contracts, door hangers, etc., feel free to drop me an email.

Sincerely,
Curtis

[GeeVee]

Ric is right about the fertilizer.......

Even if the client isn't wanting to pay- you may decide to juice it up a little on your own. What can it hurt?

[outdoor landscapes]

Trying to get commercial account

hi everybody,
my name is tom and i've owned my landscaping business for one year. It has strictly been residential. I would like to get some commercial accounts for next year. How do i go about getting in bids? Do i have to call commercial properties myself to get a bid in? I would really appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction!!

thanks