Is Scott's ferts a good product compared to ....

[lawrence stone]

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Seascape it you can answer the following questions you will have your answer:

First thing is YOU need to understand the life cycle of this plant.
How does this plant reproduce? How long does each plant live on average?

How does the early spring application of pre-emergent herbicide effect the reproductive ability of Kentucky Blue grass to reproduce?

And why is this product so detrimental when applied in March/April when the actual germination of crabgrass takes place in late June and July in zone 5-6?

Now take the pebble from my hand grasshopper.

[Seascape]

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Like thats gonna happen w/ 1955 chevys running around w/ wooden trailers made out of camper axels charging $20.00. However admin., Ive been trying to make this point for years now. Sometimes we really do work against each other when we acomidate those people who shop till they drop. Ever pulled up to a site to bid and find 2 other companies there? Happened to me. So i called the people later after dinner and explained that i really couldnt compete w/ those co.s on an install and that i would be wasting my and theyre time. I spoke w/ the wife and she was kinda snotty about the whole deal. That was monday. Thursday i got a call at home at about 8pm. Must of got my number off his caller ID i never asked. He informed that he isnt building a 2.5 million dollar home cause hes stupid.He simply didnt feel comfortable w/ the people his wife called out and apoligized for her scheduling. He gave me an address of a property he saw and asked if i would meet him there the next day. I agreed. When i got there i discovered my buddy installed it 4 yrs ago. I knew cause i did him a favor and picked up some heads for him one day to save him a trip. I called him and he offered to pull his prints and send his wife out to deliver them to me. Me and don (thats my client) walked around about 15 minutes before she arrived. I laid every thing out on the hood of my truck and we discovered total installation cost w/ 9 zone irrigation was 42,000 and some Change. He asked when i could start. I told him i could not duplicate the plan for repect of my buddies client. He asked when i could start again.I told him probally about 2 weeks. So than he said hang on and got in his car. I saw he was writing a check. He handed me a personal check for $45,000 and asked again when i could start. I told him by the end of next week. He invited me to his house warming party to take place the following evening which i did attend for political reasons. To date this account varies anywhere between 15 and 25,000 annually on maintenance. It is my best account. My whole approach to lowballers is entirely differant now and his wife offers me lunch every time she sees me. My whole approach to this industry changed when don called me that night and asked if id meet him. I target a totally differant line of clients now and learned more in that week than in the whole 20 yrs ive been in this industry.
mike

[GrassMaster]

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Hello Seascape:

If you have been in business for a while, Have Plenty of Work & Just Shine with Professionalism...

Come up with ways to Pre Qualify them over the Phone, by asking certain Questions, the First thing you want to do is Eliminate Price Shoppers!

Reassure them that you are Very Professional Plus You have The Knowledge, Employees, The Equipment to get the Job Done, You Guarentee Your Work & Let them know that you are Not Cheap or Anywhere near it & you are Not Interested in Getting the Job By Lowering your Business Standards or the Quality of You Work!

It will take a while to get this right, but if You Pre Qualify Your Customers over the Phone it will save you a lot of Wasted Time!

After my third year in Business, I Let them Know quick that they would pay dearly for my services & if they wanted a Discounted Service, I had a list of People they could call that were cheaper than I & I helped everyone of them get into this Business!

If they wanted my Trucks, Equipment & Employees parked in front of their Property, They Must Pay me for my Services.

[mariner]

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Right on Admim. I have min charges set and will not go below those charges no matter how low the competiton is. I explain to customers that I take the time to do the job right and if they are not happy to let me know and i will fix it. I have had of customers leave my services over the years for small price differences and within a short time they came back for my quality. I had a customer call me yesterday telling me that a large company had given them a price for a fertilization application that was $4.95 less than my price. I thought that it was rediculous that they were calling me for that in the first place but I explained to them that they will most likely be giving up quality for the 5 dollar difference. Most of the larger companies in my area pay their techs on commission. So, the more properties they service in a day, the more money the tech will make that day. The techs for these companies run around the properties without being detail minded and drive around town like bats out of hell. I would <b>never</b> let one of these companies service my property. I kept my customer without any question.
I use pre-m in the spring when the soil temps have stayed consitent at 50 degrees for several consecutive days. The stuff I put down is residual for up to 90 days so the time that I put it down is the correct time. I have taken many very thin growing lawns and turned them into vigorous and lush growing lawns with my programs. I use mostly all Lesco equipment(like Quality Landscaping) and I keep it in like new condition. When I pull up to a job the customer will see a very clean apperarance as well when I leave. I am a professional and read new arcticles and studies daily. I attend any workshops that my local exrension office offers for land care throughout the year. My customers are happy and I am making a living. That is what matters to me.

[Ric]

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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mariner</i>
<br /> I use a 25-3-6 during growing season and a 15-15-12 in the fall. Urea is a readilly available form of nitro and has a high burn factor. I stay away from it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Mariner

The School Bus is pulling up to your stop again. Let us see if you will take a ride this time.

Fertilize with high N in fall to get carbohydrates build up in turf roots. This helps in early spring green up.

Fertilize with Lower N and Higher K to develop deep roots in late spring and summer. Also helps excessive top growth for mowing.

Stay a way from P as much as possible for it does not leach from soil. Excessive P causes weed seed germination. Therefore use it only as a starter fertilizer on new lawns.


SALT INDEX of N. = Burn potential of N. BTW all elements have a salt index.

2.5 and above = High Burn potential

1.0 to 2.5 = Moderate Burn potential

1.0 and below = Low burn Potential



Milorganite has a salt index of 0.7

Urea has a salt index of 1.6

Ammonium Nitrate has a salt index of 3.1

Urea does have a moderate burn potential but compared to other elements of fertilizer it is a *****cat. If your are burning lawns with urea as stated above, you need to find another line of work.

Please don’t call me an idiot again. I was born at night, but it was not last night. I have forgotten more about this business than you will ever know. Go to Amazon.com and look under the names of Turgeon and Beard. Or try Turf Grass Management. You can then use these books as paperweights and tell people you rode the long bus.

[GroundKprs]

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Well, since a discussion titled about Scotts Fertilizer is gone onto 4 pages, I figured I must see what is so interesting about Scotts. As usual, Ric has already given the final answer on that question, LOL.

But no one seems to try to tackle the question: "How does the early spring application of pre-emergent herbicide effect the reproductive ability of Kentucky Blue grass to reproduce? And why is this product so detrimental when applied in March/April when the actual germination of crabgrass takes place in late June and July in zone 5-6?"

Let us look at that one. KBG "reproduces" by seed production, rhizome growth, and the growth of new tillers. This is just like most grasses, except the rhizome growth is not that common in the whole spectrum of turfgrasses; this rhizome growth will allow KBG to fill in up to a football sized bare spot in one season of growth.

The seed production of established KBG lawns is not a significant way to maintain that lawn. The seeds will be a genetic hodge-podge, and very few will successfully germinate and survive. So use of a pre-em does not have any effect on this plant function.

New tillering, the upward growth of new stalks, is common to most all turfgrasses we grow today. This is how we get a thicker and thicker turf cover - by providing proper cultural care to have this high population survive as a monoculture. But almost all the commonly used pre-ems are root inhibitors. So pre-ems have no effect on this important turf function.

That leaves rhizome growth in KGB. The rhizome is basically a horizontal underground stem, that can send up new grass plants from nodes. KBG rhizomes start to grow well in the fall, and continue growth, even when the grass looks dormant, until the ground freezes. I have seen KBG rhizomes grow up to 18" in mild winters here. But again, pre-ems affect roots, and they would not hinder rhizome growth.

So pre-em applied at any time does not affect KBG reproduction. BUT, that is not to say that pre-ems are harmless to turfgrasses. As most things in life, there is a benefit to pre-em usage in controlling summer weed growth. But the same root inhibiting effect that controls those weeds also stunts the growth of desireable grasses.

Do the existing grass plants in a lawn always have the same plant parts. Of course not. KBG leaves only live for 4-6 weeks, then die, and new leaves replace them. Whole tillers are lost to age, disease or damage, and new ones will grow to replace them. The feeding parts of the root, the dozens of miles of root hairs on each plant, are constantly growing and dying - grass root can't wiggle around underground to find food, so it just grows new roots in search of food. The grass plant tries to grow new roots, especially in late fall and spring (for cool season grasses), and what is the mode of action of pre-ems? They prevent root growth of grassy plants, and some others. So when you have a pre-em in your lawn, new roots your desireable turf tries to grow downward, from the crown of the plant, will be stubbed off. Below is a pic of a crabgrass plant germinated just before pre-em was applied. Note the stubbed roots.



And here are two crabgrass plants, germinated at the same time, with the left one getting no pre-em, and the right one getting a pre-em just after germination.



Now that you can see what pre-ems do to grass roots, perhaps you can understand what root pruning by pre-emergents means. Maybe there is a good reason for that group of southern golf managers who never use pre-ems, but rather apply a postemergent at very light rates every couple of weeks after crabgrass germination timeframe.

It is common knowledge in the trade that a thick, healthy turf is the best way to control weeds in that turf. The healthier the turf, the less chemical weed control you have to use. And pre-ems stunt the growth of good roots, which are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for a healthy turf. So now, is use of pre-ems a proper cultural practice? Only you can decide for yourself.

[mariner]

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Ric,
If you knew anything you would know that cool season grasses should get half of their P in the fall. The fall is the beginning of the growing season and spring is to follow. But, I shouldn't have to tell a freak'n genious like yourself that! This bus that you keep refering to.....does it have something to do with your past or even your present? I'll be ignoring anything else from you and your little friend. I'll bet you get all of your information from HGTV.

[Seascape]

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Maybe im just stupid but i was under the assumption that most of my root growth was taking place in the fall. So where are you getting this 9 month residual pre-m that is causing so much c.r.p. in the fall when you put it down in march or april?
mike

[mariner]

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Your not stupid. Your on track!

[GroundKprs]

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That is the big problem. Everyone works on <b>assumptions</b>. I have pulled plugs and tracked root growth for many years. My big eyeopener came on Dr W's lawn about 6 years ago. This lawn had been sodded in Dec, so it had no chance to grow roots. Then it was hit early next spring with pre-em. And had religious pre-ems for next 4 years.

Now this lawn had no crabgrass, but crabgrass would have looked good on it, LOL. It was hammered with red thread, dollar spot and summer patch. And there was absolutely no rooting into the soil - NONE! We attributed poor rooting to poor soil - this was a development on marginal farmland, and developer and builder had helped muck up the soils. But soils did test very high in P, so roots should have loved it. WTF?????

After 5 years, client wanted to seed bad spots, so no pre-em was applied. The next spring I checked the lawn in mid-March, and wow! Masses of roots down to 4". I'm not gonna do anything but watch, LOL. By mid-April, roots were down 8", and I have not applied any pre-em to that property for the last 5 years. The only change on this lawn was no pre-em, and it took almost 2 years from the last pre-em app before the roots started to grow. The lawn is so healthy that last year, on 23K of KBG - 80% in full sun all day, we only had 6-8 crabgrass plants, even with high heat and drought.

I have gone out with other operators who apply pre-ems selectively, only in areas susceptable to summer grassy weeds, and told them accurately where they did and did not apply by pulling cores and looking at the root health.

And here is a pic of this lawn today:


In that pic, the sandy soil at the bottom of the plug is what this whole soil profile was 6 years ago. The root growth had been so active that the grass is making its own topsoil. How many lawns on sand do you have that the roots will hold a 5" plug together?

C'mon now guys, show us such roots on a lawn you hammer with pre-ems for the last 6 years, LOL.

And if anyone cares to really look, he'll see great root growth here in March, before there is any appearance of activity above ground from turf.

[Seascape]

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And thats what your basing this all on? A stupid decision to lay sod in dec in indiana cause someone was deperate for work. Than another dumbass comes back and throws pre-m on it with out advising to wait cause he to needs the money. Your basing your debate on a bunch of bad business practices that took place on this property?
mike

[GroundKprs]

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Almost forgot: it has been documented that if you apply a certain pre-em for 3 years to a lawn, in following years you only need to apply 50% of the recommended dosage to achieve the same efficacy. Apparently the pre-em takes a lot longer than stated on the label to become completely broken down. The label is just directing you on how to prevent any crabgrass growth, not on how to achieve a healthy turf, LOL. I have applied pre-em at 50% rate and had results as good as full rate, where same pre-em had been used regularly years before.

I hope to have all my lawns healthy enough in 3-4 years to do away with pre-em completely. It does take a few years of hassle to get to that point where you don't need pre-ems. I get there on each lawn by using a single app of siduron in high pressure weed areas, and then catching stragglers with a post emergent. And I needed nothing except to pull 6-8 crabgrass plants on that 23k lawn last summer.

Make comments all you want now, I have tried it and done it with low pre-em and no pre-em.

[GroundKprs]

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Sorry, mike, we were posting at the same time. That was my most dramatic example. I have seen it over and over. How many times have you looked? Really looked at the root growth? And played with different treatment regimes to see how roots are affected? On many properties?

Show us some pics of your results. The roots, that is. If you don't have roots, you don't have long term health in your turf.

[Seascape]

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Honestly i havent had trouble w/ any of my properties. If i get one that is bad i immediately drop my pre 50% this is a givin. Its never taken 3 years to establish new turf. The only time i have needed to pull a plug was on a shaded property. Rest assured when i start having problems w/ my turf accounts cause the grass is dead i know who to consult.
mike

[GroundKprs]

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See folks, even pre-em lovin' mike admits that pre-em can be a stress on his turf at times. But no one knows how much until they track root growth.

No one has to be as extreme as I, there is a good result from using pre-em = no grassy weeds in turf. Just be aware that the pre-em is a stress on grass roots. We have to play a balancing game with all the chemicals we use on our plants. Sometimes a stress is warranted to avert a bigger problem. But by reducing all the little stresses, one can have a more healthy turf that can withstand the stresses that nature brings in.