corn gluten

[greg6775]

wha tdo you al lthink about applying corn gluten in spring for a prem for crabgrass 10 percent nitregen in it please let me no what you al lthink

[mariner]

Never heard of that!

[Woody]

Greg6775:

Apply it in early spring, July, and late fall. Used in that manner, it gives good control, and used 3 times a year for 3-4 years, even puts a HUGE dent in a dandilion infested yard. Beware of companies that suggest light application rates, and thus markup their product in price. Like all of the organic products, it often takes time, and repeat applications to gain control over problems. Properly applied, it is a good pre-emergent.

Tell people to read the ingredients on their favorite bread, as most contain corn gluten meal. While not made to human "food grade" specs, it is of animal feed grade. Safety with children and pets makes a good selling point.

Woody

[mariner]

In the future, I would like to offer an organic program. Unfortunately, the cost is too high right now and the demand is not high for it in my neck of the woods.

[maddog22]

I used a corn gluten product this year for a customer who requested a switch to "organic" products for their lawn. I put it down when the forsythia started to bloom. This bloom period is a good indicator that the crab grass seedlings will start to germinate. Timing is key with any pre-emergent. The results were not impressive.

I then spent more time educating the customer about inorganic products because they are more effective and more cost efficient. And if applied by a licensed applicator, there should be no detrimental effect to the environment. The organic stuff in my opinion is all hype that plays off of decent folks emotions about saving the environment, they cost much more money than inorganic stuff. Results are what matters and in general you do not seem to get good results with the inorganic stuff, almost a waste of hard earned money. Its better to educate your customer on some basic chemistry. In most cases the stuff that is considered to be not Organic is indeed engineered using organic chemistry compounds that are exactly the same in make up as the ones that occur naturally.

the natural product the customer requested
WOW! ® Plus
Pre-emergence weed control and balanced natural lawn fertilizer all in one.

http://www.gardensalive.com/item_display.asp?ProductNumber=8873&HOME=1

[Woody]

Maddog22:

First off, we are not talking "organic" as in chemical compounds that contain carbon. We are talking in the "hippie" sense of the word.

Second, I would NEVER let a customer dictate what product Iwas going to use on their property. I, personally, prefer and use "organic" apps over traditional chemicals. But, I am also intelligent enough to know when to call in things like Trimec.

You can think that the organic stuff is all hype if you want to, but I can do things with it that you can't with synthetic chemicals. Look at it this way.... The science of man is still trying to figure out the science of nature, let alone catch up to it. If corn gluten was "all hype", then the University of Iowa would never have patented it. They still, to this day, continue to research it, and the products of the future will contain an extract of corn gluten in addition to the corn gluten itself. This will enhance effectiveness.

As I stated in my previous post, corn gluten needs to be put down heavy, so you need to look at recommendations from a few different manufacturers. The ones that tell you you can go lightly on it are full of bull. And, it's my opinion that if you waited until the forsythias began to bloom, you were 1 or 2 weeks late. That is my opinion though. Since it lasts for a few months in the environment, it is always good to put it down on the early side, rather than the late side. Myself, as soon as I see crocuses (and there isn't snow on the ground), it is time.

I bet I can sell the higher-priced corn gluten based Pre-Em over your arsenic based stuff to most anyone with kids and pets. You can apply your synthetics, I have no problem with that. But, I'm willing to bet you couldn't sell your synthetic program to any of my customers who I have on organic-based apps. They are willing to pay more, and expect results to be achieved at a slower pace (though that is not always the case). They know full well what they are getting into.

Woody

[greg6775]

great reply

[maddog22]

woody
I tip my hat to your passion about the organic stuff. But dont misunderstand what I was saying here. I wasnt saying that the theory behind corn gluten is hype, indeed it is proven to have herbicidal attributes. What I was trying to say and what I find to be problematic is those manufacturers of organic products tend to play off of folks emotions and concerns for the environment, and to take it one step further, these marketers with their alarmist adds try to lead people to beilieve that synthetic products do harm to the environment- this is the hype! This is their lure to sell their products. Synthetics are not evil, it just aint so. Pendimethalin used to control crabgrass DOES NOT contain arsenic nor is it cancer causing, just as safe as your corn gluten, go take a look at the MSDS sheet for it. Furthermore, what I said is that the "organic" products in my opinion are not as cost efficient nor effective at what they claim to do. A customer has to pay much much more and use much more quantities of the natural stuff for mediocre results. A responsible licensed applicator can explain to a customer about the synthetic products and reduce their concern about the products causing harm to the environment. Natural resources are very expensive and tend to be limited. Synthetics are cheaper and are not a drain on natural resources, and since they are scientifically engineered to target weeds or whatever, there is no question about how effective they will be. The bottom line is we want to help our costomers use their money wisely. And in regard to customer service, I would hope that you do not turn your customers off from dialouge about research they have done on products they would like to experiment with. Better to use pursuasion and fact as to why your choice is better than theirs.
For all yall who would like to take a look at a Virginia Tech study on the effectiveness of corn gluten here is the link

http://www.turfweeds.net/pub_browse.php?do=view&id=18&topic=1&VESESSID=cba4dae07c697bcf8b1766c0ed69d370&cache=1068032224

[hardboiled]

I've had good results with WOW Plus. Wish it was cheaper though.

[Woody]

Maddog22:

Thanks for the link. I can't understand why they would say that to use it 4 or 5 times a year would overapply nitrogen. Maybe for the perennial ryegrass? It's only 10% nitrogen, and it is real slow release, as it has to decompose for the nitrogen to be released. It sure beats some of the national chains coming in and blowing urea around all over the place.

You are correct that the synthetics are fine when properly applied. Some are certainly much better than others. Still, there are things I can do with other organics that can't be done with synthetics for the most part. Not as far as preemergents, but other areas.

Anyhow, should you use corn gluten again, shoot for an earlier time of the year. It has to get rained on a few times, or watered in WELL, so it can dissolve to some degree, before it is effective.

Woody

[maddog22]

Woody
Thanks for the insight on the amount of time it takes for the corn gluten to break down. Perhaps this is the reason why the study didnt experience the same results as with the synthetics, it seems like the study applied the herbicides at the same time. Synthetics are very soluble, depending on how they were engineered (some are time released, etc), and can get into the soil pretty quickly. On Long Island when the forsythia are blooming, it is an indication that the soil temperatures are also adequate to allow crabgrass germination. So I imagine your indicators in Ohio can be different. But your point is well taken, applied early enough to allow breakdown of the corn gluten is key. The WOW Plus (corn gluten) bag actually directs you to put the stuff down at the time the forsythia blooms, which seems to be to late if the corn gluten needs time to breakdown.

[greg6775]

corn gluten

i dont have to use the wow congluten and can use the regular congluten to right both work the same?

[maddog22]

Woody is the best guy to ask about this stuff, my experience with it is limited. I do know that there are two types of the corn gluten products

Corn Gluten Hydrolysate - more herbicidal activity. This one is more water soluble.

Corn Gluten Meal- less herbicidal activity.

If you can get the corn gluten hydrolysate because it is more effective than the corn gluten meal.

On another note you may need to have a license to apply this, you better check that out first. Even though it is a natural product your state may include this under their umbrella of substances that you need a license to apply.

[greg6775]

ok thanks no i got all the licence you would need have so many dont no what they are all for hhee

[Alpine Naturescapes]

corn gluten

Cool Woody, I didn't know there were any other regulars that see the advantage of stuff like corn gluten. First off, even though I mostly use synthetics, Maddog fails to point out that there are no cheap synthetics that are labelled to control dandelion germination. Most of the synthetic preemergents are for grasses and spurge.

My experience with the corn gluten meal is that you have to put down 10 lbs per 1000 sf. The nitrogen doesn't start to kick in for about a month, so I normally mix a synthetic fertilizer in for spring app, like ammonium sulfate. But often don't need to fertilize again until fall.

Hope this helps!